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Armor/AFV: Contests
This group is home to our various contests, promotions and drawings.
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Dragon Model of the Month.... Prizes?
rjeffs2501
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 03:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One suggestion is to have a permanent link on the homepage to the Model of the Month contest.



i like that idea also.
bulivyf
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 04:33 AM UTC
Hi all,

I have 4 prizes (two first and two second place) but I receive only two.
More members here write that in MoM is more problems.
Exist good, no good and bad modelers. No good must compete with good because him learn .
Bad modeler stay bad.
No exist discrimination between amateur and professional builders because more professionals i s bad modeler and reverse.
What from members is professional I don`t know. I know that more modelers - 90% which enter to comtest is very good.
Transparent process? Only all voted with member name and on result table wit all voted.
Sorry my bad English.
Miloslav
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 04:33 AM UTC
Wow I see alot of great ideas on here. The hardest part of the Categories is how to justify ones skill level. What makes a person an Expert??? I like the rank idea alittle but then again some people may spend most of their time building and not surfing. Maybe those of us that think there needs to be a change are the ones always looking and not building. I myself have not entered any models, not based on the skill but based on the fact i havent built that many. As for the 4 guys winning 17 prizes, I dont see a problem with that at all, if they have the best they should win, however with that said i think the winners should be ineligable for a few months. Remember this is supposed to be to be a fun competition, and some of the ideas here are trying to make it into more of a Model show type event. We just need to stick with keeping it fun. Anyway you shake it I will support the contests that Jim and the guys come up with, after all we could be winning nothing!!! Perhaps we could use a type of voting the hall of fame uses on a lesser scale, say the top 3 automatically win and the next 2 get to run in the next month or two. This due to the fact that it does take some people a lot of time to make a model, and a month may not be a month... Just an Idea though....


Herky
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2007 - 03:10 AM UTC
Thanks guys. Definitely a lot of good feedback here. Based on some of the suggestions above I am leaning towards something a bit like this (not final yet).

Judges Award - All contest entries are judged by a panel of staff members or the Advisory Board. The model selected as the best entry wins prize #1 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter.

Advanced Level - Entries are put into a distinct gallery and voted on by all members. Popular vote wins prize #2 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter. In the case of this winner also having won the Judges Award for that month, the #2 vote getter will receive this prize.

Intermediate/Beginner Level - Entries are put into a distinct gallery and voted on by all members. Popular vote wins #3 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter. In the case of this winner also having won the Judges Award for that month, the #2 vote getter will receive this prize.

Any ties will be determined by a tie-breaking vote by the publisher (me).

I would like to do a 4th prize. Something like.

Judges Theme Award - Themes will be announced for the calendar year (and at least 6 months out). The theme could be "North Africa", "Softskins", "Anti-Aircraft", etc. All contest entries that qualify for the Theme Award are judged by a panel of staff members or the Advisory Board. The entry selected as the best entry wins ????. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter.

Of course I will need to get DML to commit to a 4th prize for this one. And we will need to improve the visibility of the contest and get more entries to continue it at this level.

Thanks,
Jim
Torchy
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2007 - 03:49 AM UTC
Well done Jim
That should please Everybody
Andy
bulivyf
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2007 - 05:20 AM UTC
Very well Jim.
Miloslav
pzcreations
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2007 - 08:54 AM UTC
until its final, should we continue as normal?
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 07:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If you go back over the past 9 months, there were a total of 27 prizes awarded. Of those 27 winners, 4 people won 17 of them.


Actually they won 18 of the prizes, during those last 9 months. But one other fact is, that between those same 4 modellers, they also built 39 models in that same period. 39 models of a very high standard that could be considered the backbone of the gallery/competition.

Quoted Text

.....The other problem with deciding by vote is that it doesn't allow for dicrimination between amateur and professional builders. .... ... having "experts" in direct competition with "noobies"


Lots of labels, that in reality dont really make the dividing line that some might expect. Is a professional builder someone who makes a living from modelling, sells a few models now and again or has ever sold a model? What makes one an expert? Who decides who should compete at what level? If its optional, and everybody jumps at the "Intermediate/Beginner Level ", hoping to win, its going to leave the advanced grouping very thin. Is advanced the amount of AM used on a kit, or how long they have been modelling? 101 questions, that could be just the beginning of whats to come. Its definately not my intention to start picking holes, but to get the thought process going so the changes can be made as easy as possible.
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 08:10 AM UTC
Was snooping around in the MOM gallery and counting some things.

The MOM has been running for 16 months now, since Nov 2005. (Dragon have been sponsoring it since Feb 2006)
In that time, 299 models have been entered .. thats an average of 18.6 models each month. 127 individual modellers have taken part .. thats on average, approx 2.4 models, per participating modeller, since the start.

68 modellers have entered 1 model
25 modellers have entered 2 models
9 modellers have entered 3 models
11 modellers have entered 4 models
14 modellers have entered 5 models or more

Oct 2006, had the most models - 27 (Feb 07 had 26)
Dec 2005, had the least models - 12.

Only 8 modellers have placed, twice or more.
Barv - 7, PzCreations - 6, Bulivyf - 5, Biffa - 4, Plasticbattle & Sticky - 3 and Pedro & TheBear - 2.
Bulivyf, barv & Biffa have all won first place, twice.
Barv has a remarkable 7 entries and 7 wins. Also remarkable that he placed in both the first month of the competition and the most recent.
Both PzCreations and Bulivyf have placed 5 months in a row.
Antoniop, Maxiplus, Miamijhawk & Tapper, have entered only once and won first prize.

The most productive modellers are
Biffa - 16,
PzCreations - 15,
Atoplu - 9,
Warthog - 8,
animal, barv, Bulivyf, Pedro & WARLORD - 7,
Torchy & wbill76 - 6.

Biffa is the only person to have completed 3 models in the same month.

I think the paint is dry enough now to proceed!
Pilgrim
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 02:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks guys. Definitely a lot of good feedback here. Based on some of the suggestions above I am leaning towards something a bit like this (not final yet).

Judges Award - All contest entries are judged by a panel of staff members or the Advisory Board. The model selected as the best entry wins prize #1 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter.

Advanced Level - Entries are put into a distinct gallery and voted on by all members. Popular vote wins prize #2 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter. In the case of this winner also having won the Judges Award for that month, the #2 vote getter will receive this prize.

Intermediate/Beginner Level - Entries are put into a distinct gallery and voted on by all members. Popular vote wins #3 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter. In the case of this winner also having won the Judges Award for that month, the #2 vote getter will receive this prize.

Any ties will be determined by a tie-breaking vote by the publisher (me).

I would like to do a 4th prize. Something like.

Judges Theme Award - Themes will be announced for the calendar year (and at least 6 months out). The theme could be "North Africa", "Softskins", "Anti-Aircraft", etc. All contest entries that qualify for the Theme Award are judged by a panel of staff members or the Advisory Board. The entry selected as the best entry wins ????. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter.

Of course I will need to get DML to commit to a 4th prize for this one. And we will need to improve the visibility of the contest and get more entries to continue it at this level.

Thanks,
Jim



Jim, that looks pretty good. My main concern would be how we decide whether a model should be in the Beginner or Expert class. I wonder if OOB / non-OOB would be a better distinction? If so the rules would have to describe exactly what constitutes OOB. Does that just mean that additional commercial kits (resin, PE, etc) are excluded or does it also mean minor scratch building (replacing plastic tow cables with picture wire, for instance) is excluded. I'm sure that IPMSS rules will have the definitions sorted (I don't know. MOM is the only competition I've ever entered).

I assume the prize for the Beginners contest will be less exciting than the prize for the Experts?


Sean
Mojo
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 06:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Advanced Level - Entries are put into a distinct gallery and voted on by all members. Popular vote wins prize #2 from Dragon Models Ltd., a recent or upcoming release. Prior months winner ineligible to win/enter. In the case of this winner also having won the Judges Award for that month, the #2 vote getter will receive this prize



Who will decide who is an advanced builder? Will it be left up to the submitter to pick the gallery to which his pictures belong? If an advance builder bangs out a kit in 3 days and feels its not his best work can/will they submit it to the intermediate gallery?

Also, how about limiting the number of entries per person. A builder that is somewhat advanced and rather speedy can flood a vote with 2 or 3 kits...

Dave
Henk
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 07:13 PM UTC
I think that we should keep thhe rules easy and simple, as I see a proliferation here that rivals the IPMS tables. We can not possibally have individual classes for each level ofcompetence, and level of OB kit. OOB has almost become redundant, ever since Dragon has added everything but the kitchensink (well, resin at any rate ) as standard in some kits. Are these OOB? Is the skill level required to build these more than the equivalent (Dragon) kit without the PE?

I think that one good change would be the 'exclusion' of previous winners, perhaps letting them enter in an Annual Competition, rsather than dragging the price away every month. Deserved as they are, it does make it less attractive for other participants.
Another change I would advocate is 'blind' votting, where only the image is shown, without any details. I'm not for a moment suggesting that favouratisme is at play, but I do know that unconsiously the name of a well known modeller can draw attention.

Cheers
Henk
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 09:47 PM UTC
Hi Henk. I agree with your points, in fact that’s basically what I was trying to say. The split and how its going to be split can always be contentious issue.

Quoted Text

I think that one good change would be the 'exclusion' of previous winners, perhaps letting them enter in an Annual Competition, rsather than dragging the price away every month. Deserved as they are, it does make it less attractive for other participants.
Another change I would advocate is 'blind' votting, where only the image is shown, without any details. I'm not for a moment suggesting that favouratisme is at play, but I do know that unconsiously the name of a well known modeller can draw attention.


It all depends on what the goal of the competition is. Excluding winning modellers, will indeed spread out the amount of modellers who have won, but to what cost? As the year proceeds, and as more winners are excluded, the quality needed to win will be greatly reduced. Will winning the 12th month competition, mean as much, after 11, 22 or 33 modellers (depending on who’s excluded) be considered an achievement? If a modeller wins third place in month one, is he/she also excluded or will it only be first places?
Although I also believe that only images should be shown in the MOM gallery until voting is complete, how blind will the "blind voting" be? No identifying texts under each image, or an entry that cannot be shown any shape or form previously? Would the later really be considered, considering the amount of content that could be lost to the site, with in progress discussion, campaign participation and research? As well as site content, it also reduces the opportunities for those that can to help those that can’t. How many really vote for the modeller rather than the model? I would like to believe the members here are a bit more mature than that.
wbill76
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 01:03 AM UTC
I think the intent behind exclusion of winning is only from one month to the next? For example, a winner in March would be ineligible to enter in April but could enter in May?

I agree it does center around the nature and overall goal of the contest. It is a "contest" after all and secret ballot voting where the owner of the build is masked will only work so far. It would also eliminate the use of the "Contest" thread where more than one photo could be used to gauge the quality of the build. I've always wondered how many of the voters look at those threads as part of the decision making vs. just the single photo in the Voting gallery? Any way to know that? The Contest threads help boost the visibility of the Contest in obvious ways, but in the two week period between the early entries and the final entries, I don't know that they get any more or less traffic by the voters. Stickying 20+ Contest threads for 2 weeks won't work, but is there a better way to get more visibility for those entries that do take the time to take the extra photos and post them up?

staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 01:13 AM UTC
A few responses...

Who determines which class to enter in?
The entrant would choose a class to enter their model in. If an expert level builder wants to enter in the Beginner/Intermediate class then so be it. Personally I don't think our egos are that small. :-)

OOB vs. non-OOB
I think most people have an idea of what level their building is at. And while OOB vs. non-OOB is a tempting system as well, it would be just as hard sometimes for people to determine what exactly is OOB. This happens quite a lot from what I have seen online and at shows.

Reducing the number of entries
As yet I have not been to a model show where people were told they couldn't enter more than one model. So I don't think that is really in our best interests. Remember, the sites goal here is to show off as many good entries as possible for the many thousands of people who visit the site each month.

Blind voting?
As for Henk's suggestion that we try to make the voting blind, this would be a nice effect (reducing bias in the popular vote), I also foresee some problems with this. Would we ask that members NOT post photos of their work in the gallery? And if we do that doesn't it reduce our chances that people will notice the ongoing contest and enter? I think the panel judging vs. popular vote will help improve the fairness of the outcome. If for some reason an entry that is not the best build kit is chosen by either system, there is a good chance the better entry will be selected by the panel or popular voters.

Cheers,
Jim
staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 01:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the intent behind exclusion of winning is only from one month to the next? For example, a winner in March would be ineligible to enter in April but could enter in May?



Correct!
staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 01:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I assume the prize for the Beginners contest will be less exciting than the prize for the Experts?
Sean



Dragon determines the prizes. But I believe they have been selecting 3 prizes where prize 1 and 2 are close to equal (last month for example it was the SU-100 and the M-51 iSherman) and prize 3 was the Gen2 figure set, US Armored Infantry.

Jim
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 01:45 AM UTC
Thanks Henk, Bill and Jim for the clarifications.
I thnk its pretty clear after that.

Quoted Text

I assume the prize for the Beginners contest will be less exciting than the prize for the Experts?


When I got 2nd prize last Sptember, the prize was the new Tarawa M4A2 Sherman. Had it before anybody else in Sweden. Hardly less exciting.
Considering they´re all posted to your door, its a pretty nice prize!
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 12:38 PM UTC
The more I think about this the more I wonder if we are looking at this from the wrong angle. How many people usually vote total to decide the outcome of the AMOM? Perhaps all that’s really needed is to generate more input from the thousands of people who hit this site week in week out. While the changes proposed may or may not make any difference to the number of entries remains to be seen, I suggest that we need to increase the participation of the members of the site as regards votes. It may not make any difference to the outcome but who knows.

As regards the multi picture entries to help us decide who is top dog each month, could I suggest a specific topic area. Each entrant places their pictures in that area, and when we are looking at making our decisions we have one area where all the info needed can be located with supporting photographic presentation.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2007 - 09:10 PM UTC
Just to update past winners on the prize situation, I have gotten all the prize kits for January yesterday. So the only prize kit that should not be in the mail this week is Steve's SU-100 (as it hasn't been released yet).

There are 2 kits from December and November I am having to re-request from Dragon as they seemed to have gotten lost in the system somewhere. Those will be sent direct from DML.

Thanks,
Jim