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Battle for Britain Campaign
Holdfast
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IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
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Posted: Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 08:33 PM UTC
There seems to be some interest in a Battle of Britain campaingn (I use the term Battle for Britain because that is what it was). Can anyone who has an interest in, or thoughts on, this campaign please, first of all read the reply I got from Rob, prompted by the confusion about campaigns. Then post comments/thoughts here.

I have many ideas about this but in my opinion the overriding idea is that it should appeal to the maximum number of members, not just aircraft modellers. I will leave it at that, for now.
Your comments/ideas please.

Robs reply to my PM. Please read before you add your comments/ideas

Quoted Text

CAMPAIGNS
Actually it is up to you. Someone comes up with a idea and usually they state some rules, sometimes others make suggestions/modifications to the rules. Start date and duration are also up to you, although you may want to make sure there isn't too much overlap with other group builds since you don't want to compete for participants. My Barbarossa campaign is scheduled to start and end when the original actual operation took place 52 years ago. That just seemed like a fun idea.

I think we use the terms "group build" and "campaign" synonomously. Although I think a campaign is more along the lines of "build a kit about an item from this era" and the group build is "everyone make a Hurricane" (for example). Sometimes exact kit is specified, sometimes just scale, other times any kit of that object will do. Again, this is up to whoever comes up with the rules.

I know there was a Tamiya Corsair build where everyone built the same bird. There was also a figure build where the theme started out as a sniper at a window but then expanded to just build only one figure.

Word to the wise is keep rules simple. There doesn't have to be a "prize" most like to build to belong to the community. If you take a look at the Operation Barbarossa thread I started, I tried to keep things simple, but then others tend to try to make things more complicated. If you read the entire thread, you'll see where I try to reel them back in. Heck someone even wanted to build a Stuka for an armor group build!

I also try to separate the out-of-box builders from the master builders who will spend $50 on aftermarket accessories and scratchbuild half of their kit. You don't want the guy who's building the old Monogram Classics Hurricane OOB competing against the guy with the top of the line Hasegawa/Fujimi kit with Eduard PE, resin cockpit and aftermarket decals. It tends to scare off the beginners when the "pros" start talking about all the aftermarket items they plan on adding to a kit. Take a look at my Jumbo Sherman thread to see this phenomenon!

If you do decide to start one, you may want to print out this message and save it for future reference. Jim has a tendancy to dump old PMs to save space.

Rob


Lets liven up this Aircraft board
Mal
vlady
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Posted: Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:45 PM UTC
k the idea is vry good, but what do u mean by this campaing? do u mean buliding british and/or german planes?
Holdfast
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:13 AM UTC
Hi vlady,
I'm after imput as to what members would like to see in a Battle for Britain Campaign.
Do you want a specific plane from the battle, probably not, do you want to build any fighter, again that limits the choice. What about any combatant, well that still limits the scope. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe several different themes, the German perspective, the British perspective, casualties (personel, planes, instalations, historic locations), dioramas (just figures, just planes, both, airfield vehicles, airfield defences. The list is endless). Scale, one scale all scales.
I would like as many members as possible to show interest from as many modelling disciplines as posible, with ideas of what they would like in this campaign then we select the criterior, probably several catagories, then go for it.
Me I just want to build a BoB Hurricane in 1/48 OOB, possibly in a dio. What do you want. :-)
Mal
Bombshell
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:46 AM UTC
I think this is a neat idea. Here is what I would like to see in a Battle of Britain Campaign:

I think it should be first separated into those who build British planes vs. those who build German planes. That is two categories. Than you can make a distinction between out-of-the-box and superdetailed. Four categories. Than you have to consider scales. I think 1/72 and 1/48 are enough but some might want to build 1/32. So than you may have either 8 or 12 categories #:-) .

In regards of what to build, I think it should only be either British or German aircraft. The modeler may want to display his model on a diorama setting but I don't think that dioramas should be made a separate category, after all, this is a aircraft campaign not a diorama campaign.

Than you just gotta set out a start date and an end date and let the birds be built. Just like the Major said, keep it simple.

Cheers,

CDT Reimund Manneck
U.S. Army ROTC
TwistedFate
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:58 AM UTC
My thoughts:
1) I agree with trying to get as many disciplines as we can in this campaign, but since we are in the Aircraft forum that may limit our interest level from other modelers.
2) Offering a prize doesn't mean too much for me, because that's not why I would do it. I don't know too much about the BfB, as I don't usually build for historical accuracy, so I would do it as a learning experience.
3) BfB to me means building Axis or Allied subjects as long as it was used in the BfB.
4) If no prize is offered, why would the super detailers scare off the noobies? Unless they just don't want to display there work next to the more elaborate entries.

Now a question. We have the Spit GB. We talked about a Hurri GB, and we are talking about a BfB campaign. Is the Hurri GB still a go? or are we just folding it into the BfB campaign?
TwistedFate
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think it should be first separated into those who build British planes vs. those who build German planes. That is two categories. Than you can make a distinction between out-of-the-box and superdetailed. Four categories. Than you have to consider scales. I think 1/72 and 1/48 are enough but some might want to build 1/32. So than you may have either 8 or 12 categories #:-) .



Don't forget some of us build 1:144 too. I think scale should be left out of it. or it becomes a nightmare. Or at the very least do 2 categories, 1:48 and larger and less than 1:48.
Favorisio
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:14 AM UTC
Mal,

I like your idea of a wide open campaign, so why not accept entries from diorama builders, or ground installation builders, or ground vehicle builders, as long as it can be tied in to the BfB.

I assume the point of a campaign is to have a winner (even if there is no prize) so there would need to be categories, but I think the fewer categories the better. Why not just
1- Any plane built out of the box (just for beginner types)
2- Allied planes (any scale)
3- Axis planes (any scale)
4- Any diorama
5- Anything else
I'm not even sure about number 4, maybe just include it in number 5.

Just a few thoughts.

Roger
m1garand
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:06 AM UTC
I would be interested. I've got Bob Tuck's Hurricane Mk 1b in 1/72 by Hasegawa. Also have Adolph Galland's 109 in 1/72 by Hasegawa.
Holdfast
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:46 AM UTC
:-) Great, some good ideas, keep em coming. I'd like to hear from as many members as possible before we start narrowing it down a bit.
Two things so far though, the Spitfire group build was started to help Roger (Favorisio) through his first build of a plane. I think this, at least for Roger should qualify for the BfB Campaign (thoughts please). Secondly I think rather than have a seperate group build for the Hurricane It might be an idea to combine this with the BfB campaign. Problem with that is it limits the veriant, (again thoughts please) :-)
Thanks for the imput so far, keep the ideas coming :-)
Mal
HunterCottage
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:43 PM UTC
Don't forget about the bombers...

There were not only fighters in the Battle for Britain... Heinkels, Lancasters did each of there own part in it...
ladymodelbuilder
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:57 PM UTC
Can't wait to get started, but first need to finish my 109 and Corsair.... Might be able to catch up and finish on time....
bison44
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:55 PM UTC
Just my 2 cents: I think if we keep the rules very simple and stress participation and sharing of the builds in the threads it will be a success. Maybe just limit it to BOB aircraft, any scale, any country involved, with clear start and end times. I have started my search for a suitable hurricane.
Holdfast
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Posted: Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 08:05 PM UTC
:-) HI Ryan

Quoted Text

Just my 2 cents: I think if we keep the rules very simple and stress participation and sharing of the builds in the threads it will be a success. Maybe just limit it to BOB aircraft, any scale, any country involved, with clear start and end times. I have started my search for a suitable hurricane.


This is basically what I was thinking Ryan, one thing that I personally would like to see is regular up dates, here on the aircraft board. You don't have to own a camera and post pics. Even if you haven't managed any progress a post of, "I'm stuck on....." will generate a discussion, hopefully. Those of us with cameras can show pictorial advancement and draw help, advice and questions that way, aswell as livening up the board.
It probably isn't realised, by most, the actual diversity of types involved in the battle. For example, Italian SM 79s and CR 42s (although they didn't stay at the party for long). Of course, as HunterCottage rightly says there's the bombers as well and recon, Junkers 86, for example. However Lancasters weren't actually involved in the Battle for Brtain.
I agree to a certain extent that as this is the aircraft board then a Battle for Britain should be limited to Aircraft that fought in the battle. However the Battle was far more than that. The "few" that Winston Churchill refered to wasn't just the outnumbered aircraft (3-1) but the pilots as well. To get downed pilots back in the air, there was the medical staff and aircraft were patched up and put back into the fray by ground personel. Exagerated claims by the Luftwaffe led to them being surprised that Spitfires and Hurricanes were still coming up to meet them. Anyway figures, not necessarily aircrew, could be included. As could dioramas, not necessarily of aircraft. But, for example, If you wanted to build a diorama of a Bofors AA gun it would have to be shown defending a RAF base (thoughts please). My point is that, although I'm not trying to convert other disciplins to aircraft, one of the guys, or gals from those other disciplins could show us stuff that we aircraft modellers wouldn't normally consider or encounter. The aim in the end is to improve modelling skills, by learning off each other. I think it might be difficult to include armour (thoughts armour modellers), I know nothing about any armour that might have been involved in the battle?
I think that all scales should be allowed with several catagories, allowing even the most novice modellers to feel it worthwhile having a go.
How long should a campaign run?
Mal
penpen
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:20 AM UTC
That's great !
It could be possible to do softskins, in the form of recovery or emergency trucks.
I've got a 54mm figure of a downed german pilot, so that could be suitable too.
Anyway, within a few weeks, I'll go looking for a nice plane, preferably a british one.

For the ship modelers, a british merchantman, a german torpedo boat, a british recovery boat (these kits do exist) would be possible.

Could someone prepare a nice ribbon, for those who will go to the end of the campaign ?

I think that the projects could be classified that way : OOB planes, modified planes, other... with more variations if necessary !
HunterCottage
#116
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 02:04 AM UTC
Holdfast,

I beg to differ on the Lancasters part. After London was bombed Churchill set loose a one time raid deep in the Third Reich, where Lancasters played a very important role. I'm not usally right in these types of things but I just finish a Time/Life book on the Battle for Britain. I don't have chapter and verse ready, but if you want I can get it

(Airfix even has a "Battle of Britain" set where there is a Hurricane, Lancaster and Spitfire...)

I know I'm ranting on like a little kid, but I'm right for the first time in my life...I am, I am, I am...

No just kidding... don't believe me if you want

(tongue in cheek)

edit: this bombing raid took place during the time of what normally is called the BfB, so I assumed it should be apart of the BfB...
Holdfast
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:25 AM UTC
:-) Brian
You are right about Lancasters sent to bomb Germany at that time.
My point, which I didn't make clear, was that Lancasters didn't play a direct role in the battle, it was in retaliation for the bombing of London. German Bomber pilots were under strict instructions not to bomb London. On one night raid though a pilot became lost and ditched his bombs. He just happend to be over London. Churchill retaliated. I think that this was when the Germans stopped bombing our airfields and started the Blitz on London. Their mistake. So Brian my appologies I suppose there is a link :-) and if you really wanted the Lanc could be included. So are you building a Lanc?

penpen

Quoted Text

That's great !
It could be possible to do softskins, in the form of recovery or emergency trucks.
I've got a 54mm figure of a downed german pilot, so that could be suitable too.


Yep thats the sort of thing. I have a Classic Airframes Walrus that I've always intended doing a dio of it picking up a downed airman, a German one of course. :-)
Mal
Favorisio
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:03 AM UTC
Just for the record: I'd be thrilled if my Spit could qualify for this campaign, assuming it turns out good enough of course I'm sure with all the help it has a good chance, but it has me to contend with as well #:-)

I may have missed it, but what time frame are we talking about for this?

Roger
penpen
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:44 AM UTC
If you want the spit group build to be part of the BfB campaign, there's an easy method : have both start at the same time !
stugiiif
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 11:10 AM UTC
Holdfast, i got a suggestion to for yopu and it might get the armor guys involved in the BoB build, the BfB was a precurser for the german's invasion of england!!! I know Sealowe was cancelled infavor of a Naval blockade, but could we add german or allied armor to the campaign, or even the naval campaigns for the ship buildersthe battle of Jutland was a desideing factor in the BfB, it just some suggestions if these don't fly i'll be building tamiya lancaster if i can find one.. stug
TwistedFate
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If you want the spit group build to be part of the BfB campaign, there's an easy method : have both start at the same time !



Spit build starts Wednesday. I think that's pushing it to get a fully fleshed out campaign going by then for everybody. I think Mal was talking about about making an exception for Favorisio only in the BfB build requirements and letting him use the Spit as a BfB entry too. The Spitfire GB is mainly an excercise to get him through his first bird painlessly.
HunterCottage
#116
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:52 PM UTC
YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! I WAS RIGHT!!!!

WHO'S THE MAN... I AM...

What... the Lancaster was only a punctuation mark in the whole Battle for Britain? Oh, man!!! I knew it... Dooh!!

So am I building a Lancaster, uhh... yeah... sure... (what exactly is a Lancaster??? ) I actually thought of building something bigger than a Lancaster... you know something that took a bigger part of the Battle... Wasn't the Apache a big part of BfB??? #:-)

No really, undecided actually. I like the idea of getting as many different types of subjects in the Campaign as possible. I see a picture of a Hurricane giving cover support to the rescue transport at Dunkerque.

No appologies needed, I'm just way too competitive for my own good!!
brandydoguk
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2003 - 11:38 PM UTC
I'm sorry but the Lancaster wasn't in any way a part of the BfB. It didn't enter service with the RAF until 1942. The standard bombers in service with the RAF which were used to bomb Germany in 1940 were the Wellingon, Hampden and Whitley, all twin engined medium bombers. Don't want to sound off but there may be newbies who get confused and build the wrong type to enter in the campaign.
penpen
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Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 03:13 AM UTC
For the armor campaign, avukich tried to make a list of all the vehicles that were allowed, due to the timeframe of the campaign.
I think that wa should do the same here. That way, noone is gonna build a JU88 night fighter, aquiped with a radar...

here is a beginning :
Spitfire Mk I with twin blade fixed pitch propelor
spitfire MkI with three blade propelor
hurricane Mk I with twin or three blade propelor
Other models of spitfire or hurricane ?
Wellington bomber
Hampden bomber
Whitley bomber
Walrus
blenheim Mk1... others ?
gladiator ?
The other british I can't remember just now...
vosper boat ?

Bf 109 E3, E4... others ?
Bf 110 C... others ?
JU 88 A... others ?
JU 87 B...
He 111...
Do 17...
italian CR42, but probably with specail colors or markings...
boatplanes...
Torpedo boat...

OK, some more knowledgeable people will be able to fill the many holes (and also the errors) in the list !
brandydoguk
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Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 05:36 AM UTC
Also flown by the RAF was the Boulton Paul Defiant. It was flown as a day fighter until they were massacred by german 109s and were then used successfully as night fighters against German bombers during the blitz. At the back end of the BfB the Spitfire Mk2 was introduced which offered a slight performance increase. There was also one Hurricane fitted with two 20mm cannon for opperational trials and 19 squadron flew cannon equipped Spitfire 1b until they were withdrawn as unreliable and replaced with well used Spitfire 1a.
Whiskey
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Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 06:58 AM UTC
I think that you should only be able to build any aircraft that was involved in the battle but in 1:48 scale.The reason for 1:48 is cause its not to big for a model campaign and not to small.Just perfect.

Anyway be it German or British you can only do planes from the battle,so that would limit it.

Just my 2 cents.