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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Panther 421
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Dunedin, New Zealand
Joined: September 30, 2006
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:59 PM UTC
I am working on Dragons Panther G. I am going to do it as LSW Panther 421,but I am unsure of which parts to use.
I have two photos off the net one 3/4 front lefthand side veiw from the front along side a Panther 411
in this photo it appears to have the chinned mantlet but in the other photo,3/4 righthand side view (damaged) it looks very much like rounded mantlet. Are they different 421s? If any one can help me details for 421 like did it have the cast exhaust covers welded for cover on turret etc I would be very happy
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Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: March 29, 2002
KitMaker: 701 posts
Armorama: 640 posts
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:18 PM UTC
Hey Greg,

i do not have a copy of the picture you mention, but in "Panther Tank, the quest for supremacy". There are two photographs of an all steel wheel Panther and this shows no chin mantle and normal "G" exhausts. There is a crew heater, but according to the caption this was backfitted and was not a normal fixture, hope this helps?

Regards from the Swamp

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Gelderland, Netherlands
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 01:30 AM UTC
Production of tanks in the final months of the war wasn't following strict orders, but worked on finishing tanks with what was available.

This means it could be possible to have a crew heater, no chin, cast exhausts, and half Flammvernichter exhausts, while also Panthers with a chin and no crew heater, the welded exhausts, and nomal pipes.

A statement by MAN officials after the war exemplifies this, as they have said that it was possible that a few Ausf. F chassis might have been completed with regular Ausf. G turrets.

Pictures of the DB production line at the moment it was captures shows about 10 Ausf. F chassis intermixed between Ausf. G chassis.

Other photos show a production line with both Panther G and JagdPanthers.

Tiger-B production also shows a mix of fittings at the end, some even being fitted with the early tracks with the 4 part bridge link and the late war 18 teeth sprockets.

You can't really define a Panther based on what is written down as when things were ORDERED to be introduced into production.

If orders were followed, there's been dozens of Ausf. F completed in March 1945, but as history has proven, that wasn't the case.
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Florida, United States
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,620 posts
Armorama: 3,581 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:16 AM UTC
The two photos probably depict vehicles from different units that happen to be numbered 421. The shot of two tanks together is probably the photo published in Steve Zaloga's "US Tank Battles in Germany," published by Concord, and are of tanks of the 11th Panzer Division captured in Bavaria at the end of the war. I expect it was the reference photo used by Dragon for their scheme, but it doesn't actually show the fan tower or steel wheel in the last axle position, so that remains conjectural for these machines unless there are other unpublished photos that Dragon had access to. Both have the late antiaircraft mount, chin mantlet and the foliage rings on the turret.
Dragon used this tank for their box top painting, and Volstad renders this as overall green with dark yellow disruptive painting. However, to my eye, the b&w photo appears to be overall green with chocolate brown (red brown) cammo. Dark yellow usually photographs quite light, though camera filters and light conditions can alter this. Just my opinion of course (Hilary Louis Doyle does report that orders went out to Panther factories to adopt the green and brown scheme in 1945, so it makes sense--but he also says that factories would likely have used up stocks of dark yellow if it was onhand).
I'll probably go with the brown and green, myself, though Volstad's choice actually looks more attractive. So take your best shot.
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Dunedin, New Zealand
Joined: September 30, 2006
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:24 PM UTC
Thanks for the help was not sure if there are more photos of this vehicle,but will go with pic with round mantlet as it has steel wheel fitted
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Florida, United States
Joined: December 31, 2019
KitMaker: 1 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 10:10 AM UTC
Very interesting Gerald. By coincidence we both graduated 1975 same HS Good to see you're up and kicking. Tony D