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Spitfire Group Build
Holdfast
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Posted: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 07:01 PM UTC
Re-posting this. Roger (Favorisio) expressed a wish to build an aircraft model of a WWII single engined plane. He has completed 1 armour model and has 3 in the pipeline. I suggested that we did a group build, sort of an on line type of thing, discussing each stage then building that stage. For a relatively unproblematic build we have gone for the 1/48 Tamiya Spitfire Mk 1. This build will start after the Corsair group build which finishes on May 1, 2003. :-)
Remember, you can't have to many Spitfires



Mal
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Posted: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 08:03 PM UTC
Thanks for re-posting this Mal, I have managed to get my Spitfire and am looking forward to starting :-)

Cheers

Roger
Holdfast
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Posted: Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:33 AM UTC
Hi Roger,
I lost about 20 posts in the crash. I asked jim to take a look at a problem with the 109 thread of the Luftwaffe group build and poof site down. I think it might have been my fault, but don't tell anybody.
So to pick up where we left off. You are brush painting, using Humbrol and weathering.
Are you going to use the kit decals? If so which ones.
I'll look up the colours required in the humbrol range and get back to you.
Do you want to include antena wires and IFF wires?
:-)
Penny are you still in?
Mal
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Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 08:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Are you going to use the kit decals? If so which ones.
I'll look up the colours required in the humbrol range and get back to you.
Do you want to include antena wires and IFF wires?



Mal, The answer to both questions is I don't know !!!!! I guess the kit decals will be fine for me, but maybe you could give me a bit more info so I could decide which I'd prefer. As to the wires, my guess is it will be more accurate with the wires on, but at what cost? Will it be too hard for me to do or do you feel confident you can talk me through it? If so I think I would like to go for it I like the look of the detail of the kit, the panel lines/bolts etc look cool. What about the dashboard? Do you use kit dashboards or get aftermarket ones?

Are there amy other "extras" you would consider?

Cheers | |Roger
Holdfast
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Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:22 AM UTC
Hi Roger,
I would suggest doing DWo0 of 610 Squadron, late Battle for Britain colours, straightforward. Unless you like the 92 Squadron bird with the black wing?
The antena wire will be relatively easy, compared to the IFF wires. You will notice that they are not yet on the Spit pics I've posted with this thread. One reason for this is that I used to use stretch sprue, which is nice and simple but nearly always gets broken. I now use shearing elastic, harder to use but dosen't break. To fit the IFF (and the antena) wires you eill need to drill into the fuselage and the tail plane. Doing this after painting causes problems of damaging the paint, so I'm planning on doing this drilling prior to painting or prior to assembly. This will be a better option, just placement is mor difficult without the decals in place. However the diagram in the kit is pretty good. So for this you will need a drill bit of a maximum of 0.4mm 0.3mm will be better. For a real authentic look the elevators should be drooped but I don't suggest that you go that far.
Use the kit instrument panel. There isn't a decal for it and there is no relief for the instruments. What I would normally do is punch out decals with my punch and die set, (when I post the next pics of my Corsair on here you will see what I mean) but the easiest solution will be to scratch the dials on (trust me). So confirm which option you would like to do and I'll sortyou out the colours and maybe some pics. :-)
Mal
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Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 11:05 PM UTC
Mal,

The 610 Squadron is fine, if all goes as well as I hope I may do another with the black wing later
What are the alternatives for the wires, can you use real wire, or fishing line? What is shearing elastic? A small drill should be no problem, I have a dremel type tool and can get a drill bit if I don't have one that small.
Scratching the dials sounds like fun Those dials are pretty small!
Love to see some more pics :-)

Later, Roger
Holdfast
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Posted: Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 12:35 AM UTC
Hi Roger,
I have been thinking about other methods of doing the wires, another method that I have used is invisable mending thread. Yes you can use real wire, if it's a small enough gauge, and also fishing line. The biggest problem is getting it taut, with real wire the strain that you would exert on the antena post would likely pull it off. With stretched sprue you can put it on relatively slack, hold a (just) blown out match under it, and the heat from the match makes the sprue tighten. I think this will work with invisable mending thread, which is much stronger than sprue. The reason for using shearing elastic is that because it is elastic, it "gives" rather than breaks, also because it is elastic it maintains its own taughtness. Shearing elastic is, I believe, used for knitting into garments to elasticate them, ie cuffs. However I managed to disprove the theory of not being able to break shearing elastic, when I managed to break the antena wire on my recently completed F6F-5 Hellcat. I knocked it close to the attachment point, and it broke. I think the CA glue had made it brittle, doh So I think for ease of use invisable thread maybe the best. Buy it at, er well, where you buy sewing stuff? One other thing you can get invisible thread in "smoke" which is ideal for antena wires. :-)
I have just looked at a couple of models previously rigged and they have been done with invisable thread, so I guess that the heated match works on that. It does look better than the elastic. Obviously been some time since I used it, I'll do some trials and get back to you. Might rig my Spit, EEK :-)
For scratching in the dials you will need a nice sharp pointy thing, the needle from a compass, filed nice and sharp will do. On my Corsair I used the tip of a No11 scalpel blade.
Later.
Mal
Favorisio
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 06:37 AM UTC
Mal,

Got the 0.3mm drill bit, our workshop at work had 3, so they "loaned" me one
I believe you A/C types use Parafilm for masking the cockpit etc, is this so? If it is then great, we have loads of it in the lab at work

BTW, like the painting, and yes you could send the other one too, please.

Later

Roger
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 09:38 AM UTC
Hi guys,
Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, but I was off line for a couple of days. I am still in with the both of you in this build. I still need to find and order me a kit though. #:-) I should have one before the build begins...
Holdfast
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:09 AM UTC
Hi Penny,
Yeah, plenty of time to find a kit. Between the two of us we should be able to get Roger through this with no problems at all. At the moment I'm just trying to get Roger "tooled up". If I come up with something that sounds a bit iffy or difficult and you have a better or easier solution, please chip in. The main idea is to talk Roger through this but if we do it right then hopefully others will learn, and/or chip in with their 2 cents worth. As long as it dosen't get out of hand. I'm hoping to learn aswell. :-)
Mal
Holdfast
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:33 AM UTC
Roger
You might need all three 0.3mm they're easy to snap, if your not careful.

Quoted Text

I believe you A/C types use Parafilm for masking the cockpit etc, is this so? If it is then great, we have loads of it in the lab at work


Yep, I use Parafilm M for masking cockpits and your sitting mounds of it. How much for a roll I buy it in small strips, must cost me a relative fortune. There are other things you can use for masking, scotch tape, Tamiya masking tape. I prefer Prafilm M because, once you get to grips with how to use it, it's comparatively quick, and relatively easy. I masked both canopies for my Corsair (Corsair group build) because I can't make up my mind which one to use. The second one only took me 10 minutes. Are you an expert in Paragami then? If not I would suggest having a go on the spare canopy in the kit. Thats assuming you know how to use it? If not get back to me. A discussion on Parafilm M might be in order. :-)
Trials on invisable thread complete and succesful, I'll post a pic of my trial aircraft in a few days. I've done something else, quite radicle to it as well. It's Jap and an early model of mine, I might have ruined it, but we'll see

Quoted Text

BTW, like the painting, and yes you could send the other one too, please.


Dambuster pick on the way :-)
Mal
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:59 AM UTC
Favorisio reporting in Sir.

Yep, I have tones of it (Parafilm) e-mail me your address and I'll send you some. But don't tell everyone

Not sure I quite understand how you use it though, maybe you'd better fill me in. DOn't know if I could borrow another drill, but I saw a set today with a range from 0.3 to 1.6mm for about 7 pounds, seemed like a good deal.


Later

Roger
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 09:48 AM UTC
Hi Mal,
Got my smoke coloured "invisible" thread, but it's anything but invisible, I saw it on the shelf right away

ALso found another source of 3mm drills, but they were 3.50 each, so I better not break too many

Spotted a programme on Spitfires on TV tonight, then went out for a meal with our daughter and forgot to tape it.

That's it for now

Roger
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 10:00 AM UTC
Hi Roger,
I just emailed you and sent two attachments on using Elmer's glue as a mask for canopies and also the recipe on how to make it. I'll send you the info on using Parafilm as soon as I can get it together. Hope it helps ya...
Holdfast
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 10:18 AM UTC
Hi Roger,
I will send you my address, you wouldn't believe how I scrimp on Parafilm M, I wont tell anyone
Hi Paulo,

Quoted Text

I got another question to you, how do you mask your canopies, it seens to be worst part for me....



Roger meet Paulo, Paulo, Roger,
Paulo asked about masking canopies over on the 109 group build, so I thought I would kill 2 Fluvians with one stone, so to speak.
Paulo, there are many ways to mask canopies but I now almost exclusively use Parafilm M. It's a thin waxy substance that is used, I believe to seal test tubes. It comes in rolls but can be bought through modelling outlets. I (used to) get mine from Aeroclub in the UK. The beuty of it is that it adheres without adhesive. Like most things in modelling it is more a matter of working out how to use it satisfactorily, that is the key.
First cut a piece (a piece 2" square would be enough to cover all the glazing on a 1/48 Ju 88 and then some).
Because you take hold of it and stretch it to 3-5 times it's size. (I used to think that the stretch caused it to stick, and kept it taught while applying it, DON'T).
It now acts a bit like clingfilm, so don't let it fold on it's self. Lay it over your canopy and press it down with your finger (creases don't matter here but avoid them if you can).
Now take a new No 11 blade in your hobby knife (it doesn't have to be new every time, I just keep a knife for this purpose, but it does have to be sharp). Carefully, following the canopy frames, just using the weight of the knife, cut out the Para' M.
Make sure that you join all the cuts, otherwise you will end up pulling off the piece you want left on. You can always put another piece on if you foul up any part.
I have recently been dipping the canopies in Future before applying the Para'M. I wont know what, if any problems this might cause until I take the P-M off those Canopies.
If there is a problem with P-M then it is after its removal. The build up of paint, future and varnish flakes off when it is removed and ends up on the canopy, (this is where the problem with Future on them comes in, as you wont be able to use Isopropynol to clean them. However I believe the answer lies in WD40 (I will explain when I've tried it)
Roger, we can discuss this some more when you've had a practice.
Paulo, other metheods are similar but use masking tape. Scotch tape is the best as it's matt and when you rub it down it turns clear(ish). Can you get P-M? If you want to mask with tape let me know and I will try and give you the lowdown.. :-)
Roger I failed to send that other wallpaper, yes I was slacking, hopefully tomorrow.
Later.
Mal
Holdfast
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 10:22 AM UTC
Hi Penny,

Quoted Text

using Elmer's glue as a mask for canopies


Tell me more, tell me more and I'm sure Paulo would like to know as well :-)
Mal
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 11:05 AM UTC
Thanks Holdfast;
I used to use the Tamiya tape method, I got the 3M masking tape (the matt one). Im afraid I didnt had the chance to know this P M, how does it looks like? Its a kind of pvc film?
Cheers
Holdfast
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 09:13 PM UTC
Hi Paulo,
Parafilm sort of looks like clear(ish) waxy paper, on a backing sheet, when it's stretched it acts a bit like "clingfilm". On the backing sheet it says "PARAFILM "M" Laboratory Film American National Can (TM) CHICAGO, IL. 60631".
The main thing, IMO, when masking canopies, is to be able to see the frame lines. I use a magnifying glass with a light, and shine another light onto the canopy, turn and angle the canopy until I can clearly see the frame lines, then using a sharp blade cut. Conventional tape is good, particularly Scotch tape and Tamiya tape but I tend to leave the masking on for a long time. The biggest problem then is getting it off and removing the residue. :-)
Mal
Holdfast
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 10:07 PM UTC


Quoted Text

I have just looked at a couple of models previously rigged and they have been done with invisable thread, so I guess that the heated match works on that. It does look better than the elastic. Obviously been some time since I used it, I'll do some trials and get back to you.


Here's a picture of the J2M3 I practiced on, not 100% clear but was easy to do. I drill a hole in the top of the fin, put some gel CA on the hole and pushed in 2 lengths of smoke invisable thread. When dry I twisted the 2 trands around each other, a short distance, applied thin CA, when that was dry, I applied gel CA to the top of the mast, pulled 1 strand of thread taught over it. The other strand was tied with half a reef knot, pulled tight and anchored with thin CA. It actually looks just like the picture in the kit.

The paint chipping was another experiment, I did it just before doing the antenas. What do you think?

Mal :-)
Favorisio
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 04:22 AM UTC
Penny, Thanks for those recipes etc, much appreciated.

Mal, the invisible thread looks pretty good to me even though it's not actually invisible

How do you explain the pattern of weathering on the J2M3, it looks a bit overkill to me, but then again, what do I know about planes?

Cheers

Roger
Holdfast
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 08:36 AM UTC
:-) Hi Roger,

Quoted Text

How do you explain the pattern of weathering on the J2M3, it looks a bit overkill to me



This is a very old model, built before I knew very much about Japanese planes. I have absolutely no references for this particular plane, but in general Japanese planes were renowed for loosing their paint. So when I was looking for something to re-visit the, not quite so invisable, invisable thread, antene wires thing I saw this unfinished Raiden (still the guns to do) but it didn't look right. I'm gearing up to do it properly, by using natural metal finish (NMF) first, painting then removing paint by verious methods, on my next Jap plane. The Raiden was a quick fix, using silver pencil. Actually I think it needs more not less, but the silver pencil is not hte best way. :-)
Got you talking planes again though
Later.
Mal
Holdfast
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 08:46 AM UTC
:-) Got your email, thanks Penny.
The email Penny sent about Parafilm M got me thinking, from a previous post:

Quoted Text

The biggest problem then is getting it off and removing the residue.


I think I may be stretching it to thin, in the email it talks about peeling of the P-M, I normally resort to a wooden tool that I made for the purpose.
I feel another trial coming on :-)
Mal
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 09:07 AM UTC
Mal, sounds like a good explanation for the "extreme" weathering, just shows how much I know

It's possible you are stretching the Parafilm a bit thin, i use it on plastic all the time and it never sticks. I am surprised you need to stretch it so much. Trials sounds good.

Roger
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 11:52 AM UTC
The invisible thread is looking good !

here is a good method for paint chipping :

- apply your undercoat
- apply Maskol where you want your paintchips to be. And here is the secret : you don't apply the maskol by brush but with the "scratchy" side of a sponge. You must place little maskol at a time. That way, the maskol can create small flakes.
- spray the topcoat over the model (maskol included, of course)
- when the top coat is dry, rub with your finger where the maskol is to remove it !
That way, the paint flakes for real !

I 've tried this method once, on some armor, and I don't quite master it yet. But I've seen a "master" get great results with it !
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 12:49 PM UTC
Penny,
I got yur e-mails, thanks for the attention...