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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Online Collaboration Idea...
staff_Jim
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New Hampshire, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 03:30 AM UTC
I was just daydreaming while putting my daughter down for her nap. First I was thinking about tanks with white washed winter camos (don’t ask me why). Then I started thinking about doing a winter diorama and how cool it would be to have a tree in the dio with the windblown snow covering it. Maybe figure out a way to do icicles? Anyway that made me start thinking about what the dio would be about and what armor vehicle, etc. First I thought perhaps a Tiger I on a road headed towards Moscow as the winter storms are hitting. I imagine a road covered with 6” or so of new fallen snow and the Tiger is creating a huge swath in it’s wake from the tracks and such. Then I had a real challenging notion. Have you ever noticed how most dioramas depict a rather static event. Sure we know the figures are in motion. And perhaps the tank, but we can’t really “see” the motion. (pause for effect) Anybody ever driven a car through 3”-6” of snow? If you have you will know the effect I am thinking of. Like with water there is a stream (or wake) of snow that is pushed to either side of the vehicle. Now I haven’t given a lot of thought to the specifics of how this could be done. But since ship modelers do this all the time with waterline bases, I don’t think it’s impossible. You would just need to get the water/snow effect right.

So…now for the kicker. I know Shermans have been the hot topic here of late. Can anyone think of a historic moment where a convoy of armored vehicles was hot-tailing it somewhere in a ton of snow? Watched “Patton” much?

I think that would make one hell of an online project for entry in AMPS or IMPS Nats. Using Patton’s rush to Bastogne as the theme, we could do a long rectangular dio of a road with several different units from the 3rd Army on their way to rescue the embattled town. And the lead vehicle (if this makes sense tactically) could be an M4 Sherman charging hard through the snowy road. In the background behind the road could be trees with perhaps a farmhouse(partial) and stone-wall fences. Maybe a French farmer with a pig waving to the troops? hehe

What’cha think?

Jim
GeneralFailure
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European Union
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 04:03 AM UTC

Sounds like a cool setting (litterally, too).
Make that a Belgian farmer, Jim... Bastogne is in the Belgian Ardennes...
Just one caution : take it easy on the snow. The ardennes DO get snow, but snowfall is rather modest compared to the snow you're used to in the US ! I was not around yet in WWII, but I can imagine the roads would rather be muddy than white while the roadside slowly gets snowed in...
Now about that collaboration.... your place or mine ? :-) :-)
Jan
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 04:07 AM UTC
Sometimes I think the folks on this site, share brainwaves or something. I just started a diorama and it's a winter scene with a Sherman and a couple of troops lending a hand to a jeep that slid of the road while under sniper fire. The tank is giving cover fire while the troops are rushing to the jeep, to help the driver and rider. I don't want alot of snow, but intend to have a light covering of snow, some potholes and ruts iced over. I do alot of driving for work, and as I drive around I've been noticing how snow lays around trees but not under them, and things like that. As far icicles, I've seen people use clear silicone to make them.

Ron C.
Ashtabula, Oh
Kencelot
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 04:33 AM UTC
A truely marvelous idea (as my eyes pan over towards my M4 awaiting it's white-wash). I have so many reference photos of M4's and other AFV's in the snow of Bastogne, that my head spins when trying to pick one for the model! There certainly are so many possibilities with that idea Jim. Why, just the number of different white-wash patterns they used is super cool.
If many people joined this foray, of course no two M4's would be alike, but would also be cool for showing the differing washes used.
Lets talk some more...
HunterCottage
#116
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 04:38 AM UTC
Funny...I was walking in the woods with our dogs today enjoying the snow-covered view, but really looking at what it looked like to reproduce in a dio!! I was thinking more of my Strv 122, but I'm basically game for anything although I'm not familiar with the scenario.

Sounds great!!
Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 06:41 AM UTC
Brian,
It was during the Battle of the Bulge. German forces had surrounded Bastogne, but had not yet captured it. This was causing real headaches for the German plan and the allies realized too that if Bastogne fell then it would free up a lot of German forces to continue the push for Antwerp. Here is a site with more info. Note that:

" In their final push, Patton's men traveled 150 miles under heavy-fire in nineteen hours. "

http://www.geocities.com/mrjohnnybee/bulge.html
TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 06:52 AM UTC
WoW!! sorry to not be 'on subject', but wow. Never seen the 4 Stars Jim. Is that new? Or....

(standing at attention and saluting) Ten-Huht!!


lol.

Tread.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 06:54 AM UTC
Tread,
Lol....Just a preview of things to come. Someday.

TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:00 AM UTC
Love the idea of the 'snow' thing, even though I hate snow in general (being in construction
you quickly learn to hate the stuff ) Also in regards to the amount of snow and ice. Everything I've read, including Belton's controversial book (regarding the Patton tank), states that the amount of snow & ice was a critical factor. In fact, during the big rush to move personnel to the area, vehicles routinely collided into one another (tanks included) because of the combination of 'inch worming' along and the icy and snowy roads.

Maybe I'm wrong, I wasn't there

Tread.
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 03:33 AM UTC
Tread--if someone really thinks the Belton book is an accurate portrayal of armored employment, I got a real problem with that interpretation. The guy is a rear echeleon wanabe. The idea that GEN Patton hindered the development and deployment of the 90mm M-26 is pure lunacy. There are other noteworthy shortfalls. All in all a terrible book in my opinion.
DJ
staff_Jim
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 03:44 AM UTC
Tread,
It couldn't have bad in terms of speed because they averaged 7+ mph getting there, and that includes fighting through some German postitions (which I would think slowed them down a bit).

But I did realize one flaw in my snow logic. If the snow is new-fallen than that suggests sub-freezing weather. Which would mean no snow-slush wake when the first tank cruises through it.

Jim
TreadHead
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 05:43 AM UTC
Genuinely appreciate the input DJ. Anyone who has acheived the rank of Col. in the US military pulls some weight with me. As I said, the book has become 'controversial' (is that spelled right?) in military history circles. Having not been there myself I can only glean information from those who were. I would love to play 'devil's advocate' here and ask some specific questions regarding who you feel made the decision to deploy Sherman's instead of Sheridans. But I won't.

Tread.

staff_Jim
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 06:12 AM UTC
Tread,
I think you meant to say "Shermans instead of Pershings". The Sheridan wasn't deployed until Vietnam (at least I thought I just read that somewhere). I am no armor historian, but I think it doesn't take a German rocket scientist to realize that with the time tables for invasion and completion of the war in Europe. There simply wasn't enough time to manufacture the sheer numbers of Pershings it would have taken to replace all those Shermans. Not only that, but was it really necessary to make a super tank? Late in the war a Tiger II or Jagdtiger could barely cross the countryside in daylight without being wailed on by air units, artillery, or even French partisans! By January of 45 (when the Pershing was first introduced) the Battle of the Bulge was over, Germany was on the run, and people in Washington and London knew the war was almost won. It would just take a few months to mop up. There was no real incentive to build Pershings in huge numbers or speed up their production.

Of course some modern liberal types would say how cruel that was. Making our soldiers fight in less than perfect vehicles. I think they lack the perspective of the people who were fighting that war. They did the "right" thing, if only because they won the war. And if those critics today had to fight that war I don't know if they could say the same.

Jim
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 07:03 AM UTC
Piecemealing (is that a word?) Pershings into the fix at this point would have amounted to a handful per battalion, one per company, tops. This would have made one big-a$$ tank among many smaller Shermans. Guess which tank would be hit first? I doubt that a Pershing could have survived 2, 3 or more 88mm hits or even a volley of 75mm hits.
Stormbringer
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 02:30 AM UTC
Hi there all
I must admit that i've been thinking of a snowbound dio set in Bosnia (or nearby) using at least one Warrior mcv in UN white plus a Scimitar(or Challenger) and a couple of soft top vehicles.If you want snow a company called woodland scenics actually supplies stuff to simulate snow,you'd need to visit your local model railway shop for it.Any thoughts/comments on my proposed dio would be greatly appreciated
Happy Modelling
Peter
HunterCottage
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:22 AM UTC
I think Maki(Mario) or even The Swede(Thord) could give some inside information on this dio, since they were there.

I like the idea! I just saw a documentary on the war/conflict and saw it through different eyes!!