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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Sherman Project
27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 08:26 AM UTC


As you can see there's a lot going on here in this picture. The tank is from the 743rd and the pic was probably taken in April in or near Magdeburg. I'm in the process of collecting everything I think I need to recreate this tank.
T62 and T74 tracks with duckbills, sandbag armor on the front and with what appear to be metal ammo boxes mounted on the side of the hull. The tank appears to be a small hatch M4. Back to the metal boxes, on the Sherman FB page it was decided that the boxes appear to be 25pdr ammo boxes. Can't argue that, so much so I went and purchased 3 sets of resin 25pdr boxes and another two sets of plastic ones

But then I started digging a bit and in the 743rd history there was a specific reference to the 'service company' coming out and mounting sand filled mortar ammo boxes to their tanks. This seemed to make more sense to me than 25pdr boxes. Really have not been able to find any images of a WWII era 81mm ammo boxes (metal)to see if they are similar to the 25pdr boxes. So I'm stuck for an answer about those boxes while I wait for my T74 tracks winging their way here from Poland


If anyone has any ideas or insights feel free to chime in.
ttwells
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 08:33 AM UTC
now that's a nice idea... I love these types of dios rather than combat... shows the story of our boys living the best they can in a terrible place.
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 09:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Really have not been able to find any images of a WWII era 81mm ammo boxes (metal)to see if they are similar to the 25pdr boxes.



Here's a U.S. Army one :



More pics here

H.P.
27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 09:37 AM UTC
Thanks. Knew youd be able to find something. Those dont look the same as in the photo. Maybe they did mug some Brits for their ammo boxes 😉
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 10:15 AM UTC
Chris,

Great idea! The boxes on the left side seem to be two sizes.

Veterans I talked to that served alongside the British mentioned they liked to borrow from each other. Still, it is odd the right track is the type commonly used on the M4A4's, and a bit odd on a US tank. It shows just about anything goes with the Sherman's.
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 10:19 AM UTC
Agree about the different types of boxes

If you enlarge the picture, you can see the British-style stamping on the boxes lids and sides. Some may be B167 boxes :



Others could be 25-pdr ones indeed :





H.P.
tangodown
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 11:18 AM UTC
Just playing devils advocate here but could they not be wooden ration boxes? They are not 25 pounder boxes IMHO. Blowing the pic up I can see some suggested metal stamping indicative of some British ammo boxes though. It's hard to really tell though. Some boxes were multi use. The only difference was the stenciling. Possibly the C224?

27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 11:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just playing devils advocate here but could they not be wooden ration boxes? They are not 25 pounder boxes IMHO. Blowing the pic up I can see some suggested metal stamping indicative of some British ammo boxes though. It's hard to really tell though. Some boxes were multi use. The only difference was the stenciling. Possibly the C224?




That's very possible especially for the boxes towards the front. On the back, those do seem to have the look of stamped metal similar to the first line drawing Frenchy provided.
tangodown
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 11:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just playing devils advocate here but could they not be wooden ration boxes? They are not 25 pounder boxes IMHO. Blowing the pic up I can see some suggested metal stamping indicative of some British ammo boxes though. It's hard to really tell though. Some boxes were multi use. The only difference was the stenciling. Possibly the C224?




That's very possible especially for the boxes towards the front. On the back, those do seem to have the look of stamped metal similar to the first line drawing Frenchy provided.


I don't see the circular stampings myself. Maybe this one? Its a crap shoot at best unless we can find a clearer picture out there.
27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 11:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Chris,

Great idea! The boxes on the left side seem to be two sizes.

Veterans I talked to that served alongside the British mentioned they liked to borrow from each other. Still, it is odd the right track is the type commonly used on the M4A4's, and a bit odd on a US tank. It shows just about anything goes with the Sherman's.



I'm pretty committed to doing this tank, 1 because it's a 743rd and 2 it seems to have been cobbled together, the different tracks not normally used on US tanks, different road wheels, sandbags, camo netting. It looks like they took three pieces of steel bar welded them from under the sponsons, threw some lumber across the bars to make a shelf to hold sand filled boxes. What's not to like here
27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2019 - 11:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just playing devils advocate here but could they not be wooden ration boxes? They are not 25 pounder boxes IMHO. Blowing the pic up I can see some suggested metal stamping indicative of some British ammo boxes though. It's hard to really tell though. Some boxes were multi use. The only difference was the stenciling. Possibly the C224?




That's very possible especially for the boxes towards the front. On the back, those do seem to have the look of stamped metal similar to the first line drawing Frenchy provided.


I don't see the circular stampings myself. Maybe this one? Its a crap shoot at best unless we can find a clearer picture out there.



That unfortunately is the only pic that I know of. There's another of an M4A3 with "boxes" on the side (also a 743rd) but the shot is even further away so you can't make out any details. The two bigger boxes towards the back seem pretty close to the picture you included.
barkingdigger
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That unfortunately is the only pic that I know of. There's another of an M4A3 with "boxes" on the side (also a 743rd) but the shot is even further away so you can't make out any details. The two bigger boxes towards the back seem pretty close to the picture you included.



Any chance of posting that other picture?
27-1025
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That unfortunately is the only pic that I know of. There's another of an M4A3 with "boxes" on the side (also a 743rd) but the shot is even further away so you can't make out any details. The two bigger boxes towards the back seem pretty close to the picture you included.



Any chance of posting that other picture?



Here's the other pic. Also a 743rd tank. I'm pretty sure about it being an M4A3, . The boxes are arrayed along the right side in this picture, with the sandbagged front with camo netting. Both have what appear to be an ammo box (.50cal?) on top of the turret.

18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 08:14 AM UTC
I like the photo you're working off of. Looks like something Shep Pane would have done back in the day.
27-1025
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 08:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I like the photo you're working off of. Looks like something Shep Pane would have done back in the day.



I know. Every time I study it I notice something else that needs addressing. I cant use the Asuka M4 Kit turret. The picture shows a turret with cast in cheek armor and a pistol port - TMD to the rescue. Also a mix of stamped and spoked road wheels.
tangodown
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 09:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I like the photo you're working off of. Looks like something Shep Pane would have done back in the day.



I gotta echo this as well. All the little differences like the mismatched wheels and tracks and even the soft armour screams rebuild. So cool.
RLlockie
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 06:43 PM UTC
The boxes could be B166, which was used for 3 mortar bombs and PIAT rounds. I have one in the garage so will look at the base later.

The 25pdr used separate boxes for charges (C206) and projectiles (depending on type).

The B167 (with a pi symbol on the side) was in apparently US supply chains as it was for 2 mortar bombs and the bombs for the bomb thrower inside the M4 turret. B167 boxes are not uncommon on US tanks. Have one of those too so will see what the underside looks like.
barkingdigger
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 - 11:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That unfortunately is the only pic that I know of. There's another of an M4A3 with "boxes" on the side (also a 743rd) but the shot is even further away so you can't make out any details. The two bigger boxes towards the back seem pretty close to the picture you included.



Any chance of posting that other picture?



Here's the other pic. Also a 743rd tank. I'm pretty sure about it being an M4A3, . The boxes are arrayed along the right side in this picture, with the sandbagged front with camo netting. Both have what appear to be an ammo box (.50cal?) on top of the turret.




Thanks - another cool potential build subject! I think those boxes on top of the gun shields are more likely ration boxes (either wood or cardboard) rather than .50cal ammo.
cheyenne
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 01:45 AM UTC
Chris , not an exact representation of your ref pic , but hey who knows maybe the tank next to this one just out of the pic to the right has this improvised set up , lol ?
Just throwing this in as an option .
Made by Panzer Art , found on super-hobby.com , no affiliation .
Downside is there's no mention of what Sherman kit this fits .







ericadeane
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 02:14 AM UTC
Cheyenne: thats the Asuka M4A3
RLlockie
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 02:46 AM UTC
The boxes are C235s.
RLlockie
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 02:59 AM UTC
After a rummage in the garage, Ive eliminated the B166, C224 and B167 for various reasons. Closer study of the pic when enlarged suggests that the boxes are fitted on end with the top facing rear wards (the fittings - either hinges or clips - are visible on the rear edge).

Im therefore persuaded that they are C206s, used for 25pdr charges. The fact that the pressing on the side face (facing out here) is pressed out, as shown by the position of the shadow, clinches it for me, along with the proportions.

Artillery ammunition boxes tend to be widely available as field artillery consumes huge quantities of ammunition, so not hard to find them lying around somewhere.
cheyenne
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 03:24 AM UTC
Roy , just checked super-hobby.com and it appears to be a resin one piece upper hull with boxes attached .
Couldn't resist shopping while I was there and none of the products mention what their stuff is compatible with .
Information which would be good to know as far as sales go ..... shame looks like PanzerArt has some pretty cool stuff .
27-1025
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 03:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Chris , not an exact representation of your ref pic , but hey who knows maybe the tank next to this one just out of the pic to the right has this improvised set up , lol ?
Just throwing this in as an option .
Made by Panzer Art , found on super-hobby.com , no affiliation .
Downside is there's no mention of what Sherman kit this fits .










I need to snag one of those. Very close to my second pic and perfect for my Asuka M4A3 'Cougar' kit. My resin 25pdr boxes are from PanzerArt, will probably go with those on my M4 build.
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 04:45 AM UTC
Chris, the sharp looking vertical edge on the cheek (at the edge of the mantlet, mostly covered by the gun shield)
looks like add on applique which would be correct for an M4 with the early cast nose.