Accurate Armour & DML Black Box Saladin.
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 08:38 PM UTC
Keith, you've got yourself a pretty amazing build displayed here...I like what you've done with the Saladin with all the trouble spots corrected.
I do find myself getting closer to a decision about which kit to buy and to build (for my "if-I-ever-get-to-it-but-at-least-I'll-have-it-in-my-stash").
When I see the average price hovering around $64 (US), for the Dragon kit, then add what aftermarket might be required to help 'correct' some flaws, and then the would be 'cost' of your 'labor' to get this thing right...I feel the AA Saladin just might be the way to go given all considerations of what you've had to do! I end up with the conclusion that the cost of either kit averages out to one another...
IPMS number 506
AMPS number 711
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2015 - 05:19 PM UTC
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 04:16 PM UTC
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 05:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
While I'm interested in seeing how the two kits compare in sizes and shapes, you are essentially comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a mass market, injection molded kit with a small market resin produced kit is not a valid comparison for many reasons, but the biggest is price.
Currently, the AA kit is about $115 USD, whereas the Dragon kit is $40 from Lucky. I think it is valid to use the Lucky price, since buying the AA kit would also involve shipping overseas to North America (in my case). Would I expect to get an AA quality kit for just about 3 times the price. Of course!
Even if I add in a set of DEF wheels (which are sure to come at about $20-25), a Voyager PE set ($15-20), and heck, maybe someone will do a new turret with the perfect hatch corrections (say $25-30), the total cost would still be no more then the AA kit. Will this be the AA kit's equal? Probably not, but it will get close, and probably be a bit easier to build even with all the aftermarket.
I'm not suggested that seeing the two kits compared isn't valid. What I am suggesting is that all things need to be considered before we again start tearing apart a plastic kit. Simply put, I am not going to expect that same from a $40 plastic kit that I will from a $115 resin kit, no different then I wouldn't expect the same from a $20K Ford versus a $60K Mercedes.
Good stuff.
If you want the best kit buy the AA one, if you really don't give a sh*t about the elitism BS , buy the Dragon. Comparing these 2 models is just plain stupid. The AA kit is said to be the most accurate in the world with an interior...so I'm guessing it is...look at the price!!
Kudo's for both companies giving us a choice.
check out the awesome AA kit
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?category=20&subcategory=6&product=2254&manufacturer=0South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 08:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
While I'm interested in seeing how the two kits compare in sizes and shapes, you are essentially comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a mass market, injection molded kit with a small market resin produced kit is not a valid comparison for many reasons, but the biggest is price.
Currently, the AA kit is about $115 USD, whereas the Dragon kit is $40 from Lucky. I think it is valid to use the Lucky price, since buying the AA kit would also involve shipping overseas to North America (in my case). Would I expect to get an AA quality kit for just about 3 times the price. Of course!
Even if I add in a set of DEF wheels (which are sure to come at about $20-25), a Voyager PE set ($15-20), and heck, maybe someone will do a new turret with the perfect hatch corrections (say $25-30), the total cost would still be no more then the AA kit. Will this be the AA kit's equal? Probably not, but it will get close, and probably be a bit easier to build even with all the aftermarket.
I'm not suggested that seeing the two kits compared isn't valid. What I am suggesting is that all things need to be considered before we again start tearing apart a plastic kit. Simply put, I am not going to expect that same from a $40 plastic kit that I will from a $115 resin kit, no different then I wouldn't expect the same from a $20K Ford versus a $60K Mercedes.
Good stuff.
If you want the best kit buy the AA one, if you really don't give a sh*t about the elitism BS , buy the Dragon. Comparing these 2 models is just plain stupid. The AA kit is said to be the most accurate in the world with an interior...so I'm guessing it is...look at the price!!
Kudo's for both companies giving us a choice.
check out the awesome AA kit
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?category=20&subcategory=6&product=2254&manufacturer=0
I have both kits in fact, all three of them, AA's with and without interior and this one. My goal was and is to show what is contained within both kit boxes and what you do and do not get for the price. Even AA's kit is not perfect, for instance, they are missing the cocking lever and cutout on the right side of the commanders Browning and it should also have come with the pistol grip! If you use AA's Barrel without canvas cover it shows widening external dimensions as it gets closer to the mantlet, is it correct?
I chose to do this build to allow those who might/may wish to wait and gather monies together and make an informed choice and decision.
As I said before, not everyone shops online and some are not willing to put payment details online either, others may enjoy seeing the AA kit being built as well!.
The shelf price of this kit in my store is $64.00 and that is fair based on what we pay for it and being a brick and mortar established hobby shop. Some still like to support us!
If you don't like what I am providing in this build, don't read it or start your own... If you do I can assure you I wouldn't tell you it was stupid...
It is comments like that that makes me once again feel that this will most likely be my last input/build on Armorama..Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
Armorama: 11,675 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 10:15 PM UTC
Looking excellent Keith, nice work.
Al
'Action this Day'
Winston Spencer Churchill
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: June 13, 2014
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 10:57 PM UTC
I don't think there are too many individuals that know their vehicles as well as you do the Saladin. Thanks for the insights!
Keep those new kits coming...
Idaho, United States
Joined: March 25, 2015
KitMaker: 23 posts
Armorama: 23 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 11:27 PM UTC
Keith,
I am sorry you are discouraged by some comments posted here. You have been a great assistance to me in my build. Everything you pointed out was spot on. I have been tempted many times to buy the AA kit but I do not like resin kits that much. I was happy to see what came in the Dragon Black Label was a good base to do some model work on. I have very little info on the Saladin and what you provided was a blessing to me. Thank you. I hope you continue posting here. I do have a question about markings for a Saladin. It seems that Malaysian Saladins had a marking of a black "hissing" cat on a yellow background. Try as I might, I have not been able to find that on any of my 35 years of decal collecting. Does anyone do that or am I doomed to try and make a stencil of it? Thanks again!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2015 - 12:08 AM UTC
Dan, thank's for the words of encouragement and I am glad my build has been helpful to you.
IF some would read the title of this build it CLEARLY says and I quote >
'Accurate Armour & DML Black Box Saladin.'
AND, NOT 'comparison'.
It could be said it is a comparison but it isn't, I was going to build both and show what is in the box and the problems with building them.
I provided AA's Derek Hanson with the Black Cat, Yellow background picture and the registration of one of my personal Saladin mounts back in the Far East.
He kindly acknowledges me in his instructions and added them as part of the unit decals set they provide with both of their kits.
I would suggest you send them an email and ask if you could purchase a set of the decals. They are known to be very helpful.
Good luck with your build.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: November 27, 2005
KitMaker: 182 posts
Armorama: 180 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2015 - 12:37 AM UTC
Hello Keith,
just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed your input very much. Even if you did not want to make a direct comparison I personally feel that there even would not have been something wrong if you would have. These are two models od the same vehicle in the same scale and therefore a comparison of course would have been valid. Things like price, material and else could have been taken into account, but basic outlines, detail and fit of course could have been valid points for a comparison.
Even without the "comparison" issue, you should not worry to much about comments offered by certain people. Their language speaks for itself. I definitely prefer qualified input over the respective gentlemen`s usual "one-sentence-answers". Keep it up and many thanks for sharing your builds.
Best Regards
Dennis
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 - 04:52 PM UTC
The Black Cat on the Yellow background was used by us as part of the 17th Gurkha Division/Overseas Commonwealth Land Forces (Malaya).
The HQ. was based at Lamjung Camp in Kuala Lumpur until 1966 when it moved to Seremban, (Negri Sembilan) where we (C Sqn.) were stationed in Paroi Camp after returning from Borneo.
The Black cat perpetuated the traditions of the former 17th Indian Infantry Division which had used a Black Cat as its emblem.
We were subsequently moved from the 17th Gurkha Division and then came under command and control of the 28th Commonwealth Brigade and the 1st Battalion Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment who were based in Terendak Camp, Malacca.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 14, 2006
KitMaker: 1,355 posts
Armorama: 979 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 - 08:42 PM UTC
Keith,
Your Saladin is coming along nicely.
I think it would be quite useful to see you build both kits from DML and Accurate Armor. What comes in each box, how the details compare, the pros and cons of each, etc., etc. And the real-world info you are providing is invaluable!
Will you put a striking familiar figure with your Saladin?
Drive on.
Jeff
ESSAYONS!
"Man does not live until he looks to the future, and that is his salvation in the worst of times.".... (Author Unknown)
AMPS #2102
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 - 04:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Keith,
Your Saladin is coming along nicely.
I think it would be quite useful to see you build both kits from DML and Accurate Armor. What comes in each box, how the details compare, the pros and cons of each, etc., etc. And the real-world info you are providing is invaluable!
Will you put a striking familiar figure with your Saladin?
Drive on.
Jeff
I do have a figure in mind but may hold on to it for different build.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 - 06:31 PM UTC
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 02:06 AM UTC
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 05:21 PM UTC
I have sent in a request for two update sets from Castoff with the intention of correcting this vehicle after our AMPS show next month.
I will then explore the possibility of safely shipping it to Windsor (UK) and our regimental Museum. They have expressed interest in obtaining it, along with my Yellow and Black cat brigade shoulder markings.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 04:15 PM UTC
Thank goodness for a good air conditioning unit in my shed, it hit 100.F yesterday and after working outside it was a haven.
Anyway, I have got a little more work done on the Saladin and the base >
I painted a small area and added a little groundwork for the beast to sit on, the information plate will sit between the badge plates.
The antennas are in place along with a cam net and canvas tarp.
I added the fiberglass (plastic) spare antenna tube and long 'crowbar', missing from the kit, the old metal antenna tube fitted to the upper hull was a nightmare and full of rust, along with being hard to clean out.
I still have the Commanders Browning to put back on, the tow rope on the front, gunners wiper, wing mirrors and power cables for the smoke grenade launchers to be added and finally some padlocks, then touch paint everything and call it a day.
Thank's for looking in.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
#417
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 07:50 PM UTC
Keith,
Excellent job on this kit. Thanks so much for walking us all through this. The fixes you detail are not onerous, notwithstanding that they are numerous! If I can get this kit for $30-40 I'll certainly be buying one.
A couple of questions, if I may:
One thing that I always look for is basic shape inaccuracies. With your familiarity with the vehicle, are there anything (other than possibly the wheels) that strike you as wrong, shapewise? Angles, sizes, locations, etc?
It's not clear from the photos and I don't have the kit, but where does the actual exhaust exit the muffler and muffler cover?
The last questions is the radiator grille you created. It appears to be actual fine woven wire mesh that is then shaped to conform to the compound angles of the transition between the peaked profile at the front of the inlet louvers to the flat profile at the rear and then you added a frame of strip styrene. Is this basically correct?
And, again, thanks for "taking one for the team". :-)
Paul
Paul Roberts
Past Editor, Boresight
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 12:18 AM UTC
Thank's for following along and your input.
the actual barrel under the cover has a curved slot on the bottom rim and it exits down and out at an angle.
I cut it with a razor saw and cleaned it up. The pipe from the engine hull to and through the rear fender is missing as well, but I can live with it or I may add a curved pipe as a poor representation rather than the kits NOTHING!
The REAL mesh is woven (under and over) in both directions, my plastic mesh conformed well and in my eyes better represents the real item. There are two small 90 degree arms at each end (L and R)that are curved downwards and small bolts screw through and into a threaded, welded on (nut). The framing should be round but again I used what I thought would work and readily to hand....With a little work it still represents a good looking Saladin (Salad Tin).... 'hatches closed'..[/b]
Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
New Jersey, United States
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 946 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 04:07 PM UTC
Keith, I really liked the way your "salad tin" came out. Very nice build indeed. Thanks for posting it will really help me when I tackle the kit. I really enjoy it when I fellow veteran details a piece of equipment that only some one with first hand knowledge can.
Tom
"ALLONS" 11TH ACR BLACKHORSE
"Death Before Dismount"
19K40/ Dino Rider 19F10
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 05:43 PM UTC
Like all pieces of equipment in British Army hands, standards can vary according to individual units and of course location and ongoing operations along with the ability to have the time and items (paint and brushes) needed to keep the vehicles looking 'spiffy'..
Bullsh!t baffles the brains they say but with the vehicles looking smart when in the public eye and especially when in foreign lands they do represent a very professional force.
However when up front in the sharp end, the priority is towards the high degree of maintenance and operational functionality of the beast.
Lack of paint doesn't stop the vehicle from operating!
Some units insisted on both the Red and White wheel nuts being painted, some did not and that requirement could be found down to troop level. In our troop we thought it (red rim nuts) to be surplus to requirement and the majority of the troops found the White (wheel nuts) to be more than sufficient indication of which ones to remove in order to take a wheel off. Even that was more B/S than really needed. Nowhere in the user manual (AFV025) does it indicate any painting of wheel nuts, more of a numbnuts/safety umbrella thing...
The Bronze green paint back then was a semi gloss paint and all markings were GLOSS...
(Note to judges who are stuck on MATT model finishes)
Of course for parades and inspections the Red rim nuts were painted and unit (regimental) decals (YES GLOSSY DECALS) were added to the mantlet or turret sides depending on quantity available.
I am lucky to have an original LG. Cypher (decal) that was issued to me many years ago and I keep it in pristine condition. Again, they were only issued for parades and recruiting tours
Being that we were, 'The Life Guards,' we somehow always had an abundance of paint available and made constant use of it..
Painting the insides with Aluminum (Aluminium) paint could be a nightmare as it took a while to dry and got on you and your clothes each and every time.
Fond memories indeed and we were quite sad to see them withdrawn from service. Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 05:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Keith,
Excellent job on this kit. Thanks so much for walking us all through this. The fixes you detail are not onerous, notwithstanding that they are numerous! If I can get this kit for $30-40 I'll certainly be buying one.
A couple of questions, if I may:
One thing that I always look for is basic shape inaccuracies. With your familiarity with the vehicle, are there anything (other than possibly the wheels) that strike you as wrong, shapewise? Angles, sizes, locations, etc?
It's not clear from the photos and I don't have the kit, but where does the actual exhaust exit the muffler and muffler cover?
The last questions is the radiator grille you created. It appears to be actual fine woven wire mesh that is then shaped to conform to the compound angles of the transition between the peaked profile at the front of the inlet louvers to the flat profile at the rear and then you added a frame of strip styrene. Is this basically correct?
And, again, thanks for "taking one for the team". :-)
Paul
You can also see the correct height of the engine deck supports when in the open position and the welded on nuts for the wire screen hold down tabs.
http://svsm.org/gallery/Saladin/IMGP2989
Keith. AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
#417
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 07:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The framing should be round but again I used what I thought would work and readily to hand
So more like a frame of rod/tube rather than flat strip or more like a half/round picture frame.
In either case, "I see what you did there".
"Salad Tin" That is both apropos and just as irreverent as I would expect from the normal British squaddie sense of humour.
Paul
Paul Roberts
Past Editor, Boresight
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2015 - 04:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
The framing should be round but again I used what I thought would work and readily to hand
So more like a frame of rod/tube rather than flat strip or more like a half/round picture frame.
In either case, "I see what you did there".
"Salad Tin" That is both apropos and just as irreverent as I would expect from the normal British squaddie sense of humour.
Paul
One of the interesting points to note is the V shaped hull, something that today's vehicles are emulating and going back to.
We were smart.... back then anyway....
I hope all of this helps.Keith.
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 04:31 PM UTC
AMPS Member, certified field judge & Always something on the workbench!
