I have 6 dragon pz iv s enough is enough howabout laying off the shermans and panzer 3s and 4s dragon .A good line of the leo 1 series or french amx with modern hardware or up to date and correct t62, t72, t80 0r t90, a lav iii kit that does not need 50-70$ in aftermarket to do an acurate model and add to a new kit the opption of several veriants and decal schemes.The germans lost the war remember, matilda crabs , buffalos over the rine ,canadian softskins etc.

what Chuck said. I would love to see dragon do a LAV III or any modern armour, after the M1's they seem to have lost interest

Alan Yeah, they have them on the Stug IV too - I have one in my stash, but I wasn't going to mention that one 'cos if I recall, Stugs used a mix of Pz II and IV wheels and suspension. Interesting to see the extent of discussion I started - must do that again! Rob

Those DS tracks seems to be of interest only to some lazy people and it always drives me nuts when those guys post their DS tracks wishes under any kit review they stumble upon across the whole net .. While they (DS Tracks) might be acceptable on vehicles without return rollers they stink on all tanks where tracks have to sag... I beg that DML won't ever drop the beautiful Magic Tracks from their pz 1 - IV kits... And those who are whining about spending 2 or 3 hours to realistic sagging tracks... Go and buy some King & Country toys instead

They should include both options of DS or magic tracks, or just include the magic tracks, as it is easier to obtain a more realistic and natural sag that many of the German WWII armor tracks had. It's a real shame that ALL of the zimmerit coated tanks that DML has released thus far, have only included DS tracks; it ends up costing me, and a lot of modelers more to replace them with single-link or workable types. Perhaps they believe that modelers that buy the pre-zimmerit coated tanks are novices and not the tread-head that expects higher parts count? I don't know, maybe they feel that the tread-head buys the none-zimmerit tanks with the magic tracks and do it themselves?

Never thought about that but yes this is probably true. While I have a hard time using ds tracks, I think we need to be careful in calling ds users "lazy". I think it is a matter of preference as to what each modeller can do. Some may get better results using ds than indies. That said, I like when they include both options so all are happy.

I am Not trying to re-direct this thread away from its new Pz. IV subject, but it seems we are interested in its track option(s)... I would think that including BOTH DS and Magics in one kit would be a reasonable and not very costly thing to do - the Dragon afterall does have a long (and very satisfying, at least to some of us!) history of including LOTS of extra bits in most kits, and more to this point, providing builders with version options, as in various 2-, 3-, and even 5- in 1 kits. So the Dragon has already "said" by its actions that it is willing provide options for the money. And the molds exist for most of the track types. And charging a FEW more dollars (euro, whatever) for extra tracks would be likely quite acceptable to many, based on our evident willingness to rush for kits with more features, so an argument that this inclusion would be more production cost than would be recouped in upped retail seems rather weak, and the more so as this could actually draw more buyers into some kits (I'd be amongst these) - so more sales. Alternatively, as I (and many others, I am pretty sure) have repeatedly stated to the Dragon in various formats: Dragon could surely make a small killing by marketing both DS and Magic tracks alone, IF they did so at more reasonable prices than we currently see them. The issue here is the price of what becomes an AM accessory for the kit, as versus an in-box option. Sad to say, but it looks like the Dragon's viziers have seen fit to counsel him that neither approach should be entertained. And thus the Dragon continues to drive a stake into his fans. Maybe this, and/or other modeling sites, could organize a poll or roster to quantify how modelers feel on this issue... Get the VOTES. If this started up soon, who knows? Maybe we could collectively send a NUMBERS message out to the Dragon that might influence them sometime in a year! After all, it does seem that the model companies do occasionally respond to modeler "Xmas wish-lists" and polls such as annually-conducted on various sites... Some questions might be: 1) Would you be willing to PAY MORE for a kit which included BOTH DS AND MagicTracks than for the same kit with ONLY one type of track? Check "Y" OR "N". 2) What would you consider to be a fair price-increase for including BOTH track types in one kit? (Check or submit one increase amount: $US 2.00 $US 3.00 $US 4.00 $US 5.00 more than $US 5.00) 3) Which of the following kit x track options would you prefer? Check A or B or C: A) Having BOTH track types included in EVERY kit AND paying a higher price for every kit, OR B) Dragon offers TWO versions of every kit - one with DS and one with Magics, with either kit being AT a lower price, OR C) Dragon offers each kit in one track type ONLY (DS OR Magics, based on whatever Dragon logic prevails), AND Dragon offers the corresponding OTHER track type as an "AM option" AT a MODEST price (as versus current ca $US 18.00 per set). Evidently, many folks ARE interested in this track-type issue. IF many modelers were to answer these, or some other similar questions, and a "substantial" "counted" voice of interest could be collected and passed to the Dragon, then it might be heard by same. The secret being NUMBERS: Dragon IS a business, and this is a business decision, and Dragon may likely respond IF the numbers are clearly there. Cheers! Bob

I agree that track type is overall a personal preferance, and that it would be beneficial for Dragon to include both DS and MT in their kits. Personally I think that either one is better than having to use the old school rubber band type. From a financial standpoint for both DML and us as consumers I think that the only realistic approach from Bob's "survey" options would be for Dragon to include both types of tracks in their kits. This is the only way that I know of to keep the costs and prices down from the above mentioned options.

Hmmmm.. Lets put the sagging tracks into perspective.. A nice shiny new, or just out of maintenance, tank will have very little track sag. Only an old, badly maintained tank gets track sag as it is not a good thing to have much as it is very easy to throw a track when they are sagging. Therefore may I suggest that it is not a problem using DS tracks if you wish and the use of them does not make you lazy at all. Many German and Russian tanks that were prone to track sag had the parts of the track that sagged covered by fenders etc so you can;t see the sag anyway. SO one could in theory be wasting ones time by worrying about the dag in a covered track anyway. I like Magic Tracks and DS tracks and it only takes me a few hours to complete a set of magic tracks using the glue and drape method. I think the option of either in a kit would be the way to go personally.