Hi Bill. Firstly I don't think the discussion should be shut down, just split off from this thread which should remain a news topic and moved into it's own where it can go off on as many tangents as it likes. I enjoy a decent debate, it often brings out new info that would otherwise have remained hidden in the depths. Secondly I'm not OOB, I like accuracy, but I respect others choice not to care. Calling people OOBers in a negative way is just as disrespectful as them calling you a "rivet counter" in a negative way. You ( the third person "you" that is )can't expect respect if you don't give it. The "mozart" comparison used earlier is a perfect example, in that analogy the "rivet counter" is Mozart, the "OOBer" is a monkey banging on the keys. Do you not see how that sort of comparrison makes some people appear elitist or as if they consider themselves to be a better modeller simply because they like accuracy ? Thirdly there is a distinct tendancy for some to ask for proof when it's something that differs from there opinion but feel no need to provide evidence themselves when it is something they believe. It's fine to quote historical precident but you have to keep in mind all that comes across as is the good old internet "as everybody knows" arguement. Obviously some people don't, so give them the benefit of the same documented proof that you expect them to give you for an altrernative. Lastly re the DVD : The DVD is called Archives of War : Battles on the Western Front 1939-1941 narrated by Brian Matthews. Includes a lot of German propoganda footage from the period. Watching it with a lot of time spent on pause or slow advance there are two clear photos that support the secondary colour, one on a PI, one on a PIII. Strong enough and clear enough that you can't argue they are shadows. There are a few where you could argue could be camo, could be shadow and a couple where if it was shadow it doesn't move as the tank moves so would tend to support the camo arguement. Images of French and British AFVs show their camo schemes clearly. There are also a few very well lit, close up images of P1, II and III tanks in which there is no evidence of any pattern or even shadow which could be taken as such. And of course many, many images where you could never say one way or the other. For me it's enough to say that yes there definitely were two tone vehicles during this period but also enough to support the possibility that not all vehicles carried it. Also on those where you can see it the coverage appears to be much less than 2/3 grey 1/3 brown, it appears to be much more sparse. There's a place here that sells a whole heap of WWII archive footage for $10 NZD a DVD so I'm going to go searching and see what else I can find. And Jim Firstly, the constant use of subtle sarcasm is unbecoming, try losing it in favour of intelligent rebuttle, I can respect intelligent rebuttle whether it agrees with me or not, in fact it's usually much more indusive to a decent discussion than universal agreement. So yes I am aware you're not the only mod, that was simply because you were the only one at that point that I perceived to be taking sides in a "my view is better than your view" debate. I'm also aware that you don't go into another man's house and tell him how to arrange his furniture. I also was not doing that. I was stating an opinion based on my own experience doing what you do, the implication simply being to indicate that I was aware of what was involved. last time I looked we were allowed to express opinions in the free world and I'd expect a teacher to be able to differentiate between an opinion and a directive. The beauty of opinions is that people are free to have an entirely different one, even one at total variance. What keeps us a free world is respecting each others right to have one.

I love to see a good trailer discussion Anyway, having the 3 Tamyia HTracks 7 series, I welcome Dragon and Trumpeter for getting those out, I'm a little concerned about the prices we'll have and also some of the mistakes (on both kits). I wished they had some metal gun barrels included, anyway I might get some of these. Happy modeling ! Both kits have mistakes (Dragon & Trumpeter), not totally accurate, we may want and need to correct them, wait for a correct version or building it anyway.. "Rivet counters" or "OOB's" just keep having fun modeling.

Actually you're quite wrong with that statement. Mozart was only the composer who penned the song in the first place, I would be the 'monkey banging on the keys' and another hobbyist would be the 'pianist who played the song correctly'. We've each chosen our own paths to take in the hobby. There was nothing elitist in my intention or the statement, would it have been better had I used 'twinkle twinkle little star'? My point still stands, it wasn't a 'rivet counter' who threw the first stone here, yet they always seem to be viewed as joy stealing accuracy nazis. I just find the whole "it's my hobby I should be able to do what I like" viewpoint while slagging off those who count rivets to be the epitome of hypocrisy. Live and let live...

Precisely for these reasons, i've re-awakened the idea of a proper Research Forum. I'm getting tired of the posts asking for advice or comments, which, when responded to, they'll say something like 'well, i'll do what I want anyway..' I'm getting tired of those who don't still quite grasp the concept of B-O-O-K-S which are carefully and painstakingly researched whereas a few lines in Wikipedia is treated like information passed-down on tablets of stone. More than anything, i'm tired of the Atta-Boy comments on a Forum like Constructive Criticism which is designed for precisely that.

I have to chime in and agree on the side of Jim and those who support proper research. if you dont care for accuracy and research then dont bother asking questions, if you're just going to ignore what you're told then just have fun with the hobby and let the so called 'rivet counters' get on with it. Personally for me I strive for utmost accuracy and anything short of that doesnt make me happy, call me a rivet counter, call me anal whatever, but thats just how I treat the hobby, if you dont agree with that then fine, but i dont think those OOTB builders need to have a go at us when we raise accuracy issues or research questions. All to often people like Gary Owlsey were demonised because they care about accuracy and factual research, by the 'its only a hobby' crew. I think those people who just want to build for fun-go for it, I like to build for fun from time to time, but please dont knock us down because we are interested in research or finding out factual information. As to the idea of a research forum, to be honest Jim, I think we should leave things as they are. A lot of information does get lost in the forums, but the key to research it hunting around the forums, and using all of your resources. I think having a research forum would just fragment things. A better idea would be to collect all of the useful information from the forums on various topics and form it into a feature. The ASLAV thread for example has a wealth of info, if that could all be collected together with relevant pictures, it would make a really useful feature!

Dean, I mean no disrespect to any OOBer. None. I review kits here on Armorama precisely for the modeler who wants to know 'is this kit worth my money?" I will mention upgrades, as I did on my last review on the BF 110 G-4 because, like with the Tamiya Sd.Kfz.7 kits, you likely wouldn't enjoy building the model without them due to its lack of detail and inaccuracies. But I never assume anyone's going to build a kit I review any way but OOB. I also enjoy building OOB, especially aircraft. And Armorama reviewer rules require us to build our review kits OOB. Rather than take apart Lamont's Mozart analogy further, lets' just say if You (the royal you and not you, Dean) don't care about accuracy, then that's fine and I'm not looking down on you. I really don't care because it IS a hobby. I have gone through the "authenticity wars" in the Civil War reenacting hobby, and frankly don't care what others do. But there are historical conclusions that diligent folks with far more knowledge and experience bring to deciding issues that affect how things were. Those who came before us frequently didn't write things down because "everybody knew it." Fortunately for Axis modelers, the Germans DID write everything down, compulsively. As to the camo issue, I won't repeat the many reasons why period photos don't often show off the two-tone camo on Panzers from 1939 through mid-1940, including poor photographic quality, dirt and the fact that you have a dark color with a darker one over it. The French camo jumps out of even poor-quality pics because it's contrasting colors (same with the German pre-war tri-color camo). For the 3 or 4 of you who might be interested, there's a very lengthy discussion and some fine examples here. Finally your point about asking someone to provide evidence when it disagrees with what I or another "rivet counter" thinks: there are some things that historians (both professional and amateur) have concluded as correct. It doesn't mean that subsequent research won't change our minds, it just means that AS THINGS STAND NOW THIS IS LIKELY WHAT HAPPENED. In the case of camo for Poland and France, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Wehrmacht painted over tri-color tanks with two-tone camo (brown on gray). Those who argue otherwise need to provide evidence, since there is ample evidence (written and photographic) that shows tanks for Case White and the Blitzkrieg into France were painted in two tones: "panzer gray" with brown patches 2/3 to 1/3. There's no reason why OOBers and "rivet counters" can't co-exist on this forum. As I said in an earlier post, I point out the deficiencies in kits to alert potential buyers about their problems, not because I look down on them. Far from it. I frankly wish all kits could be built OOB because I HATE the BS of tracking down upgrades, trying to find retailers who have them, and then trying to sort through the poor instructions Voyager and Eduard in particular provide.

Bill I think you and I actually agree. What I think this discussion has highlighted is that many who take this hobby seriously feel they are at times maligned as "rivet counters" which I'm sure to some means "anally retentive tank geek". I think it's unfortunate that we all tend to take to using jingoistic phraseology far too easily and so "rivet counter" comes to be an easy term to use to sum up those who like to make something as accurate a representaion as possible. If I use the term I hope you'll forgive me, if I use it I use it solely as term to define that group which likes to go the extra mile. I don't put myself in that category because I do take liberties with my modelling, but I do put myself more toward that end of the scale because if I know something is wrong I will correct it and I do like to research my builds first, I just don't always go looking to find something that's wrong. Unfortunately due to my nature ( what my partner terms my OCD ) if I know something is incorrect it will bug the hell out of me until it's corrected. Hence I'll buy the Dragon 7/1 over the Trumpeter 7/1 as the inaccuracies in the Dragon seems easier to correct than those of Trumpeter. Primarily the ammo bins on the sides of the gun because I had to spend a day correcting them on an old Tamiya kit and it bugged me that they couldn't get something that basic correct. As for the 7/2 I'm still comparing. As for the camo thing I did read all I could find on it. And from the DVD I'm convinced enough that there were camo tanks. I generally dismiss the whole "quality of photos" arguement as it can be used by both sides, hence the research via DVD rather than stills. I've noticed even on the DVD a pattern that is clearly visible while moving becomes way too grainy on still to see it with the same clarity. What I look for is variation in surface detail that doesn't change with movement and change of light/angle etc. Next weekend when my daughter is over I'm going to borrow her laptop which has a DVD player and try to get a few decent stills to post up here so you can take a look for yourself and see what you think. In the meantime going to pop down today and see if I can find any other DVDs that might help. Actually you're quite wrong with that statement. Mozart was only the composer who penned the song in the first place, I would be the 'monkey banging on the keys' and another hobbyist would be the 'pianist who played the song correctly'. We've each chosen our own paths to take in the hobby. There was nothing elitist in my intention or the statement, would it have been better had I used 'twinkle twinkle little star'? My point still stands, it wasn't a 'rivet counter' who threw the first stone here, yet they always seem to be viewed as joy stealing accuracy nazis. [/quote] Perhaps not your intent but that IS what that analogy implies, that he who plays the music properly is an expert whilst he who bangs away is a mere amateur - or that he who builds accurately is an expert whilst he who does not is a mere amateur. Perhaps a more correct analogy would be that two equally gifted pianists can play the same tune, one as it was written and intended to be heard, one that is interpretive ( or just two men on their first days of lessons, one intending to master the work, one happy to just be able to play it so it's recognisable ) and there will always be supporters of both just as there is when some new group releases a cover of a 60s song, some will hate the new version and love the original, others will feel the exact opposite. Neither is right, neither is wrong, it's just two versions of the same thing ( rather like the various factions of Christianity - same God, different ways of doing things and all of them sure their way is the right way and the others are all going to hell )

Hey i am just glad there are other examples of two other fine sdz7 to build and that we are not stuck with the old tamyia ones, as for the trailers, hey were modelers i am sure we can kitbash one to be correct right. they make great dio complements and create a great story line for them. i know i will be using one, just not sure which yet, for everything so far has been dragon.

Kit or test-shot pictures. http://sembado.com/photo/Dragon/6542/ch6452.html