login   |    register
Cars: Other Racing
For automotive racing topics not already covered.
Hosted by Joel Willstein
Nunu 1/24 scale Kremer Porsche 935 K3
md72
#439
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: November 05, 2005
KitMaker: 4,696 posts
Armorama: 278 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 08:26 AM UTC
Not enough glue in my morning coffee.

Quoted Text

hotel room size fridge


I read that all wrong for the first 5-10 times.
Dixon66
Visit this Community
New Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,242 posts
Armorama: 286 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 11:18 AM UTC
Obviously, Damian did too. Just glad I didn't post hotel sized fridge. ROTFLMYAO
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 06:03 AM UTC
Time to bring you all up to date on my 935 K3 build.

Last week I primed the prepared body shell, and the two sub assemblies that comprise the rear wing. As usual my go to primer is Mr.Finisher's Light Gray 1,500 thinned 2:3 with Mr.Leveling #400 thinner. Since this mixer is extremely thin, it took a tack coat, then 3 wet coats to get an even Primer coat.







One thing I really like about this primer is that the gray is so light, that I've never had to use the bottle of Tamiya White Primer I bought years ago. When using a mixture this thin, any filler really needs to be almost the same color as the plastic, or it will end up showing through the primer coat. So I've switched to Tamiya gray or white filler, giving up Green Stuff and Bondo. When I do have a color mismatch, then I'm forced to go with a 1:1 ratio. The only difference is that I have more rubbing out to do.

And speaking of rubbing out, the following day just a few very lite passes with a wet piece of Tamiya #3,000 sponge got the surface smooth as glass.

I was going to paint the color coat that day but I came down with my 1st winter illness, and hopefully my last of the season. A damn stomach virus decided to pay me an unwanted visit. So while I could go online as I was only 15 ft from the bathroom, but couldn't chance trying to airbrush. So I waited till the end of week when I was feeling somewhat better, but not completely over it.

I prepped my Grex airbrush with the .5mm setup, set the flow rate to 15 psi, put on my most uncompfortable mask, and one glove on my holding hand. Then mixed the bottle of my choice of color: Gravity GC-102 Titanium White rather then Porsche White. The reason being that Kremer with all the body Modifications would have had to repaint the entire car, and from the pictures it does look like bright white to me.



My AB procedure still is just a tack coat, let the paint cure for 3 min, then in this case 4 color coats with 5 min between coats. Here's the end result straight from my drying bin. No rubbing or polishing to get ready for decaling as yet. The paint is super smooth, just like the primer coat under neath of it. I'm more then satisfied with it, and that my painting procedures are finally starting to show the level and consistancy I've been after for quite some time.











Thanks for taking the time to stop by and checkout my update. It's always greatly appreciated.

Joel



md72
#439
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: November 05, 2005
KitMaker: 4,696 posts
Armorama: 278 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 07:19 AM UTC
Persistence pays off. Really shows well, thanks for sharing the technique. Usta feed the baby Pedialite, rice and oatmeal when those things happened.

Doubt I have the primer coat smooth as glass on my '51 Ford, and I want a used look, but I'm going to try your thinning and timing when I get to the color coat on the shoe-box.
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 07:39 AM UTC
Mark,
By day 2 I was really considering a quick run to the Drug Store for some Pedialite, but being basically lazy, I just stayed the course.

Your color coat will only be as smooth and consistent as you primer coat. Prep is just as important as the color coats.

Believe me, when I made the switch from military aircraft is was like I got hit with a 2x4 on the top of my head. Damn gloss paint jobs are so much harder, and there's no weathering to cover up my screw ups. I use Paul's basic technigue from International Scale Modeler. Just checkout a few of his painting vids, and you'll have it down to a science. If I can do it, anyone can.

Joel
RussellE
#306
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,612 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 08:44 AM UTC
Top notch effort on the paint work Joel!
AussieReg
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
#007
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 7,494 posts
Armorama: 181 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 09:41 AM UTC
Great 3P's (prep, primer and paint) job on the shell Joel, it certainly won't take much effort to get it really shining now!

Cheers, D
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 10:46 AM UTC
Russell,
Why thank you my friend, it's much appreciated.

Joel
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 10:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Great 3P's (prep, primer and paint) job on the shell Joel, it certainly won't take much effort to get it really shining now!

Cheers, D



D,
Glad that you liked my efforts on the 3P's. Still got plenty to paint on the shell before I can start decaling, but she's starting to certainly look the part.

Joel
Cosimodo
#335
Visit this Community
Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: September 03, 2013
KitMaker: 1,568 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 - 11:39 AM UTC
Great job Joel. I follow your painting methodology and I agree that the results for me have improved a lot though I am still 1:1 on the primer mix using the same ingredients. I think where I need more practice is the final gloss coat which I still haven't achieved a great finish yet i.e. the mirror effect.

cheers
Michael
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 - 04:42 AM UTC
Michael,
1:1 using Mr. Finisher 1,500 is fine. The 2:3 ratio is just so I can use the same technique that I use for those super thinned Gravity and Zero paints. Honestly, if I've got a lot of filler to deal with, I would opt for the 1:1 mix ratio.

As for the final clear gloss coat, just slow down that pass a little but don't stop to get a little more in some places. Also you can thin out that coat about 10-20% more. Then let it dry and cure for a min of 3 days. Then then the magic of rubbing out, polishing, and waxing takes place.

Joel
Szmann
Visit this Community
Netherlands Antilles
Joined: September 02, 2014
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 305 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 01:02 AM UTC
Hi, Joel. Don't you ever think you've got away unnoticed with this thread! I have seen it actually since a few days, since I started re-posting, but I knew I have to take my time over it and read it properly. And this morning I had the time and the mindset to go over it, sipping my coffee and satisfying my other bad habit (besides modelling, of course)

I take the risk of being redundant: I have said it before, many other said it before, but you keep doing it again and again with professional attire. I love the consideration you give to the real world car, to the original scale model manufacturer, to the modifier and reseller of the scale model, down to the sponsor and the decals producer and even more down to the shade of white!

I am myself a sports car enthusiast, but I never went that far as you do, to the spoiler wing degree and the wideness on the rear wheel arches. I know they are essential in track performance and I understand the physics involved, but I prefer to keep myself away from technicalities

On 3Ps: As we refine the art of airbrushing, apparently we are reaching the same conclusions in our own ways: the preparation is more important than spraying proper A bad spraying session can be easily fixed (unless it is a badly botched 2K session), but bad preparation cannot be fixed unless the model is stripped back to bare plastic and many modelers (including myself) just don't have the guts to do it.
Now, mixing ratios and pressures vary quite a bit, depending on the atomization of that particular airbrush, the real air pressure at the exit end and the shape and depth of the crown.
I use 2 H&S and they are apparently identical, but they behave quite different when comes about the mixing ratio. My Evolution sprays thicker thinners like a champ, while the Infinity likes more subtle dilutions. The best advice I can give here is: get to know your tool! I react to the conclusion that using an airbrush is as using a fountain pen. Yes, we may share the same pen and the principles of writing are the same, but the handwriting is as different as it can be!

Nice color scheme and wow! these electric colors will certainly illuminate your display case. You keep saying that your eyes start failing, but you didn't fail to identify correctly the white pigment. Yes, titanium white, is the coldest white pigment and Apple chose it probably to imitate the cold LED display light behind their "electric" sponsorship colors.

I am captivated already by this thread and I wil, naturally, follow it.

Gabriel
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 02:13 AM UTC
Gabriel,
I never doubted for a min that you wouldn't get around to reading through my Porsche 935 K3 build. You pretty much come to all the same conclusions as I have over the many years of modeling that I've put in.

While I never was really into military modeling because of any deep interest in aircraft, it was more of my love of plastic modeling, and lets face it, back in the 70-90s, car guys, especially Hot Rodders & Custom builders were always looked down on by the Military guys. IPMS was more like 95% Military and maybe at best 5% cars. But times have changed for the better for us car guys in many ways.

Now my building interests are geared toward my real world car interests, and lets face it, I'm a car racing enthusiast pure and simple. Because of my real world of cars interests, I'm very particular on not only how well a kit is molded, but how accurately it's done as well. Decals have to be dead on not only in color and registration, but placement for a particular car for a certain race, and that also goes for all sorts of winglets, vents, etc. More on that with my next major update by the end of the week as I've completed the decaling stage

Believe me, I've struggled to learn how to air brush a gloss finish. And honestly, all of us that have crossed modeling genders only knows just how hard a gloss smooth as silk, mile deep finish is compared to a how we air brush a Military Matt finish and then apply even light weathering which changes the whole look and can cover up a multitude of issues and errors. I'm not implying that they're easy, but just not as technically hard. We have no crutches or options to cover up painting issues. It's just that simple. And more then most I struggled, I really did to get to where I am today.

My deep interest in car manufacture, car, car type, series, & race leads me to all sorts of issues that normal modelers don't really deal with. Again my next update goes into some of those issues both real car and model car.

As for air brushes, I'm with you on how they vary by make, model, and type. I loved my Single Action Paasche H but it shot almost as much paint as a rattle can. I tried a Iwata Double Action and just couldn't get use to the how the trigger worked, as 90% of the time I used it more like a single action gun. Iwata came out with the little M series and I bought both the M1 & M2. OK, but just never could get comfortable with the feel of those little guys. And parts were very hard to come by even from Iwata. Then I bought on Sale from Sprue Brothers my two Grex Geneses air brushes: .3 & 5.mm set ups, and I was in heaven. The trigger stops made them more like single Action.

As for colors, cars are pretty easy as both Gravity and Zero not only pre-thin their paints (easy but more expensive), but do all the research and have dozen and dozens of the correct color for car, sponsor, race.

Having you along for the ride is a true joy, as like D, you never let me wander and keep me focused which is really hard for this old timer these days.

Joel
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,437 posts
Armorama: 902 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 07:44 AM UTC
Hi Joel

Nice progress - this is going to be a stunner!

The discussion over how to get a good gloss finish is really interesting to me, because I was mulling over exactly that point the other day during a quiet moment at work.

Where I face a conundrum is that in the "good old days", we simply used gloss enamels or lacquers and polished them. Job done.

Now, from what I've found with the limited number of dedicated car-modelling paints that I've bought, they dry with a matt or satin finish and rely on a gloss top coat to complete the finish.

To me, that's totally counter-intuitive - I remember way back (probably the 1960s) that top modellers were writing that you can't replicate full-scale gloss paint realistically with varnish over matt model paint.

But, back then, we still had lead-based enamel paints - which did produce a superb finish. I'm not suggesting we should reintroduce toxins like that - but the challenge is try to replicate the results; I used to brush-paint flawless gloss coats that I wouldn't dare attempt nowadays without an airbrush.

All the best

Rowan
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 10:28 AM UTC
Rowan,
Thanks for checking in and the thumbs up for my work to date.

As for a gloss finish, well, my next update that will be posted by Sunday night for sure, is 3 fold: paint prep for decaling, decaling right on top of the paint, Clear gloss finish.

Yep, in the good old days, we used gloss enamels and got a pretty good gloss finish. But since we had nothing to really compare it to other then real cars that were all waxed over their Matt paint, our finishes were pretty darn good.

Today, everything has changed, and it's a brand new ballgame.

Like Military Matt paints, Gravity, Zero, and SCM paints are Matt Lacquer based paints that they claim are made from the real auto paints, then thinned to a water consistency with true lacquer thinner. Here, primer is king, and it needs to be rubbed out with 3,000 sponge to knock down any high spots and get the surface down to the low spots.

When You see the pictures of the 935 K3, you be a convert too.

Joel
AussieReg
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
#007
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 7,494 posts
Armorama: 181 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 10:36 AM UTC
I'm right into this discussion as well guys. The "Orange Peel Free Zone" is a place I haven't yet been able to get to. I suppose the main problem I have had so far is that I am impatient and don't focus enough on the primer sanding stage. I think I finally got it close to right with the '54 Corvette under the Zero Viking Blue.

My next build will be the '55 Pro Sport for the Race Group Build, with an all over gloss white and quite a plain body shape (very little in the way of trim mouldings), so I will be stepping up my prep game on that one!

Thanks for the insight and great info.

Cheers, D
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 12:06 PM UTC
D,
Don't sell your Gloss painting short. The last two Chevy's were your best to date.

And you're 100% right, perfect primer and surface is the key to a perfect color coat application. As for the color coats they need to be lite, even coats with 3-5 min between coats. The goal as I said to Rowan is a smooth surface. The gloss comes from the clear coat.

Joel
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,437 posts
Armorama: 902 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 12:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Rowan ...When You see the pictures of the 935 K3, you be a convert too.

Joel



Hi Joel

Don't worry - I don't need converting; gloss-coating over a matte or satin finish is what I've done with aircraft kits for at least 40-odd years (Jeez! I feel old! ).

But the irony for me is that, when I last built a few car kits as teenager in the 1970s, the undisputed masters of gloss enamel and lacquer finishes on the UK scene were the "pro" auto-modellers. I remember seeing their work at shows and it really was incredible. I still remember Gerald Wingrove's models in the early 1970s - and, to be honest, nothing I've seen since has ever bested them.

I've always found there is a difference between a polished coat of pure paint and a gloss-coated one. It's subtle (and it doesn't always show in photos) - but it's there, and it's a compromise I'm happy to accept because it's so much quicker and simpler to get a good gloss-coated finish.

But, for me - being basically out of touch with the car-modelling scene for a generation - it's total revelation to find modern-day auto modellers adopting the very same techniques we propeller-heads used to suffer grief for using!

Where I do despair on a personal level is that I STILL want to master gloss finishes old-style when there's no longer any need! LOL! I'm looking at two alternatives for my Ford entry - one of which I can almost guarantee will work - and the other will be a real challenge. Guess which one grabs me!

All the best

Rowan
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 02:25 AM UTC
Rowan,
Gotcha on your goal. Since I'm basically a race car modeler, there's a ton of decals to deal with, and I need to seal them in Gloss to both protect them from everything you can think of including curious fingers, to trying to blend them into the paint.

I'm planning on trying to work into my few builds per year some classic iconic road cars. For pre-clear coating years I'm going to be going with no clear coat and see what I can accomplish.

I've seen several of Wingate's models, and they guy is from a different planet. A true Alien for sure. Come to think of it, maybe he's the father of HG whose been taking Brian's B-17F to a IPMS National Masters level. Now there's a true Alien if I've ever seen one.

Joel
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 07:06 AM UTC
It's been a little more then two weeks since my last update, but I've finally got enough accomplished for another update.

The last update was all about priming and painting. This update concentrates on decal prep, decaling, clear coating, rubbing out the clearcoat, and the infamous: Wax on, Wax off.

I gave the paint a good 3 days to cure. While the paint finish was my best to date, and pretty smooth to the touch, I still gave it a light wet rub with 6,000, 8,000, & 12,000 emery cloth. Then a nice bath in running warm water while gently wiping the body down with a piece of one of my many old cotton T shirts, and into my drying box till the next day to start the decaling process.

The decals for this build are from Indy Cals. There are two options, the #71 LeMans winning car, or the #9 Riverside winning car. I decided on the #9 just to be different. Gee, what a surprise that is.



As usual Michael's decals are in perfect register, and the colors look dead on to all the reference material I have. And as usual they're all one huge decal, so you have to cut and trim. Not so easy with the engine hood surround, and all the sponsor printing in between. I'm assuming that Michael envisioned that most modelers would just apply all the hood decals at one time, but not me. Call me anal, but I'm a firm believer in if something can go wrong, it will go wrong for me. So I cut out the color surrounds, then cut out the sponsor decals into 4 separate ones.

I decaled the hood, then the driver's side, the passenger side, the roof, the front, the back, and finally the wing assembly which hasn't been installed as yet. One of the two hardest decals to get right was the 3 sided multi colored engine hood surround. The biggest issue was getting it properly aligned and wrinkle free as there's all sorts of compound shapes to contend with. The only other issue I had was the side decals that cover the rear turbo charger radiator intakes, and then wraps around to the rear wheel arch. This was by far the hardest decal to install, since you had to align it around the radiator opening, the chassis sill plate, and finally to the wheel well arch. When I got one area right, the next areas became an issue. Fortunately, it all worked out just fine in the end.

You'll notice that those vent openings are rather rough looking, and that's because I have some final fitting issues to deal with for the PE screens and turbo radiators. Also on the engine hood, the "P" in Computers has open circle under it. The honest reason is that I just forgot to glue it in place before I painted the shell. So I still have to paint it, then glue it to the hood. Going to soak the decal in Micro Set, same for the Sol. Let the decal dry for a day, then cut it from the hood, and finally apply Solvaset to have it lay down along the outer edges on the cap. Hopefully it will work out just fine.

Once the decaling was completed, I let it dry for 2 days, then came the clear gloss. I still use Mr. Color #46 Gloss thinned 2 parts clear to 3 parts #400 Mr. Leveling Thinner, as I just can't find their Super Clear III other in a rattle can. I applied 2 tack coats, then 3 wet coats, and back into the drying bin for 4 days. Not a single surface issue for a change. I still rubbed out the gloss coat with 8,000 & 12,000 emery cloth, then another warm water bath. I let it dry for a few hours, then using the Gravity system of 3 different grades of rubbing compound to really smooth out the finish and get a really good shine. Finally, Gravity's Carnauba Wax. This is the best overall finish to date without any major issues. The end results were certainly worth the effort.













Thanks to all for stopping by and checking out my progress to date, as it's always much appreciated.

Joel
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,437 posts
Armorama: 902 posts
Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 07:31 AM UTC
Hi Joel

That is looking really sweet! The decals have basically gone on beautifully. As you say, the vent openings might need a little touching in with paint (maybe the wheel arches and the rear edge of the wing too, for the icing on the cake), but it's almost asking the impossible to expect any decals to do everything without at least a little help. I've got to say I'm really impressed at how well the decals have snuggled down over such a complex shape.

All the best

Rowan
Szmann
Visit this Community
Netherlands Antilles
Joined: September 02, 2014
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 305 posts
Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 11:18 AM UTC
That is excellent work, Joel!

No question, the paint looks very smooth and the decals integration is awesome. I love the color scheme, but I also know that it is a very challenging one and you have excelled. Beautiful!

Gabriel
AussieReg
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
#007
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 7,494 posts
Armorama: 181 posts
Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 01:27 PM UTC
Superb work on such a complex scheme Joel, I love it!

As the other guys have already said, some touch-up work on this level of decaling is inevitable, I'm sure that you have it under control.

Awesome stuff mate!

Cheers, D
Dixon66
Visit this Community
New Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,242 posts
Armorama: 286 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 12:36 AM UTC
Damn Joel, that looks great. You really nailed it again. The complex curves, just wow!
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,190 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 02:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel

That is looking really sweet! The decals have basically gone on beautifully. As you say, the vent openings might need a little touching in with paint (maybe the wheel arches and the rear edge of the wing too, for the icing on the cake), but it's almost asking the impossible to expect any decals to do everything without at least a little help. I've got to say I'm really impressed at how well the decals have snuggled down over such a complex shape.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
Thanks for your thumps up buddy. Glad you like how the shell turned out. I'm hoping that the radiators and PE grill covers those rough areas, if not then I'll have to get a little creative to that they look the part.

I gotta say that I'm really quite happy at how those decals turned out. One issue that I had is that there were several different rear fender openings based on whose car, year, and race. The decals were designed for the twin openings, while the kit has one large one. There is a resin conversion kit for the fenders, but honestly, they have other issues, so I opted not to go that route.

Like I said, the overall finish is my best by far, but even glossy White doesn't show up all that well in photographs, just like in real life. And believe me I know that only all to well as my Hyundai Sports Coupe is White and just never seems to have that mile deep shine no matter what new polish I use.

Joel