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"Military Scale" for Railroad Models?
JPTRR
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 - 04:51 PM UTC
Hi Group,

We 1/35 modelers are slowly but steadily enjoying more and more railway models being produced.

Sometime before last July there was at least one thread concerning, or asking about, whether there is a model railroad scale designation for the predominant military scale of 1/35, i.e., "HO scale" for 1/87, "OO scale" for 1/76 (often co-opting 1/87), "O scale" for 1/48, "S scale" for 1/64, etc. (More information about those scale - and others - can be found here: Model Train Scale and Gauge )

I wrote to the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) asking if there was one, or if they were planning one. NMRA is involved in bringing standardization to model railroading throughout the world. Acceptance of NMRA conformance is a significant selling point for model railroad manufacturers.

Tonight I heard from Carl Smeigh, their Manager of Manager of Standards & Conformance. His reply follows;
Quoted Text

You are correct that there is no military 1/35 scale. As you pointed out the NMRA has in the past lumped scales 1:20 to 1:35 as “large scale” but there is little data. In the active years of developing standards for model railroading, these large scales were all but unheard of. Those years,1935 to the 1960’s, many people spent a lot of time developing standards with the state purpose that the standards were to ensure a model in a given scale would run on anyone’s layout, known as interoperability. Wheels, trucks, track gage, track size, coupler height were all evaluated. Manufacturers were deeply involved in the development and acceptance of these standards. That leads us up to the modern era.

In your email you asked if the NMRA would be willing to create an M scale for 1/35 scale? The answer to that question is yes, but it comes with some significant work. Those working in that scale would need to develop a study group and present proposed standards. Using the existing standards in the popular scales, you can see what is needed. I have to mention that it’s not a case of just picking some numbers and going with them, in the past technical papers were written that provide justification for the numbers. The second part is conversation with the manufacturers of trains in that scale and getting their buy in. The standard is worthless if the they mandate changes that the manufacturers will not use.

Having said all of the above, if you find there is the energy in a group that models in this scale, to take it on, the NMRA is more than willing to listen and consider adding the 1/35 scale to the standards. Please make sure those note rested understand the level of involvement though and again manufacturers involvement would be needed as it affects them the most.



So, have we any interest in creating a 1/35 "military scale" for the model railroading world/creating a model railroad scale for 1/35 (however you want to look at it)? Does it matter? Might it make any difference in encouraging more 1/35 railroadia?

Just wondering.
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 - 05:08 PM UTC
Hello Frederick,
This is indeed worth considering. I'm very interested to get some work done to establish the M scale.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
barkingdigger
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 - 10:47 PM UTC
Hi Fred,

Interesting reply from Carl there - the ball is in the modellers' court. As for names, I'll open the bidding with "T-gauge" for Tamiya - the big pushers of 1:35.
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 - 10:52 PM UTC
I would have said get in touch with MiniArt due to the amount of railway items they release in 1/35th scale.
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 - 11:25 PM UTC
Well if they (we) do end up calling it "M" scale you, Darren can start the rumor that the M actually stands for MiniArt.

Much in a way similar to that of "O" Gauge not really being "O" but rather "Zero" Gauge. (Indeed it DID start out as "Zero Gauge/Scale".)
nikon1
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 01:28 AM UTC
There is #1 gauge which 1/32nd scale
Cheers
Charlie
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 02:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I would have said get in touch with MiniArt due to the amount of railway items they release in 1/35th scale.



Trumpeter and Dragon also make 1 35 railroad stuff
in fact Trumpeter makes 2 WW2 German locomotives one aromored and one with out armor
GregCopplin
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 03:04 AM UTC
1/35 is between O gauge and G gauge. You could technically build a 1/35 railcar and put either O scale wheels on and run it on that track, but then it’d be to big for the track i believe. If you did the same thing for g scale then it would be a little small for the g scale as well, but in theory it could go either way.
JPTRR
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 04:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

1/35 is between O gauge and G gauge. You could technically build a 1/35 railcar and put either O scale wheels on and run it on that track, but then it’d be to big for the track i believe. If you did the same thing for g scale then it would be a little small for the g scale as well, but in theory it could go either way.



Hi Gregory,

Very true. But you bring up a confusing point about "scale" vs "gauge." Scale is ratio of model size to prototype, i.e., 1/35, regadless of the gauge the rolling stock sets upon. Gauge is the distance between rails, regardless of scale. Putting a 1/35 railcar on O scale wheels on and running it on that track would not necessarily be to big for the track. That would be a narrow gauge railroad.

"G" is more of a genre, not specifically a scale, although G does have a scale of 1:22.5, as recognized by NMRA:
Quoted Text

G Gauge — a system operating model trains on rails 64 mm (2.519") apart. There are several different scales representing real track gauges of from 24" to 4-8-1/2" that use G Gauge. The most common scale used with G gauge track is 1:22.5 or .533" to the foot.

"G" encompasses many scales that are gauged to run on a common track, LGB IIRC, from F scale 1/20.32. The remarkable company Cumberland Model Engineering has a good explanation of it: What Is F Scale?


Quoted Text

One Gauge, Many Scales, Much Confusion

Ideally model trains built to a particular scale should also run on a model track gauge proportional to that of the prototype. Historically, as garden railroading has evolved, this has not been the case. Concern for scale has generally taken a back seat to the expediency of one almost universal track gauge—45mm—and the result has been a cacophony of scales, mismatched models, and confusion, all trundling down the same track under the vague heading of “G” scale.

On many garden railroads, one can find models of American standard gauge trains (4’-8˝”) operating right alongside 3’ narrow gauge ones, European meter gauge, and even Maine 2’ gauge trains - all on the same track. As many as six different scales (1:32, 1:29, 1:24, 1:22.5, 1:20.3, and 1:13.7) now populate the large scale scene!



Germany had hundreds - if not thousands - of miles of narrow gauge railways that authentic modeling thereof in 1/35 would require more than just putting xxx-scale models on yyy-scale track; that would just create an inaccurate "gauge."

Keeping this in mind is why the interest in creating a "military scale" for 1/35, the predominate military scale, might be useful.
165thspc
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 05:16 AM UTC
The G guage confusion of many scales running on the same gauge track is similar to what is happening now in the OnXX world.

We have true On3 scale Narrow Gauge (1/48) which runs on special built scale 36" gauge track, then we have On30 where O scale runs on 30" (HO) trackage and then (I just discovered this one) 55n3 where 1/55 scale trains run still on HO track but in this scale the trackage works out to again a correct 36" gauge.

(In this parlance On3 would also be referred to as "48n3".)

It's a wonderful, crazy, exciting world isn't it?
barkingdigger
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 06:01 AM UTC
Of course halfway between G and O gauge would make it "K gauge"...
KoSprueOne
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 06:45 AM UTC
A very interesting subject here. Thank you for writing the letter to inquire in the first place.

There are many 1/35 scale railroad kit builders but how many of them are interested in expanding to a running layout. (Is this what this discussion is about, or am I misunderstanding?)

I like building and painting static railroad model subjects.




nikon1
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 08:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Of course halfway between G and O gauge would make it "K gauge"...



K gauge in of itself doesn't exist. There is #1 gauge which is actually 1/32nd scale
Cheers
Cheers
Charlie
nikon1
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 08:28 AM UTC
Another thing is this. North Americ as n narrow gauge is 36 inches while European narrow gauge is meter gauge or 39 inches.
Cheers
Charlie
165thspc
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 09:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A very interesting subject here. Thank you for writing the letter to inquire in the first place.

There are many 1/35 scale railroad kit builders but how many of them are interested in expanding to a running layout. (Is this what this discussion is about, or am I misunderstanding?)

I like building and painting static railroad model subjects.



Even if we don't choose to operate these 1/35th scale trains there is still a need for standardization;

Example: One manufacture's 1/35th kit might be gauged to G gauge trackage while another manufacturer's equipment is gauged to actual "scale" track dimensions.

Or: two manufactures both making 1/35th scale trackage but one track possibly being incompatible with the other.

I have already encountered both the above but I feel sure there are other non-standard problems awaiting us in the future.
165thspc
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 09:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Another thing is this. North Americ as n narrow gauge is 36 inches while European narrow gauge is meter gauge or 39 inches.
Cheers
Charlie



Rest assured Charlie even if we didn't mention meter gauge it is not forgotten. Then too there is also 24" gauge as well as 18" , 12" and others I am sure.

Also let's not fail to mention Russian broad gauge at 5 feet between the rails.
nikon1
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 11:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Another thing is this. North Americ as n narrow gauge is 36 inches while European narrow gauge is meter gauge or 39 inches.
Cheers
Charlie



Rest assured Charlie even if we didn't mention meter gauge it is not forgotten. Then too there is also 24" gauge as well as 18" , 12" and others I

Also let's not fail to mention Russian broad gauge at 5 feet between the rails.



Michael, the only two foot gauge I'm aware of is in Maine. 18 inch and 12 inch are mining gauges and possibly amusement park trains and also live steam gauges.. There is a gentleman in England that models 1/6th scale live steam that incorporates 1/6th scale figures and equipment
Cheers
Charlie
165thspc
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 11:22 AM UTC
Correct;

Mining, industrial and entertainment railways but still they exist!
Removed by original poster on 11/12/19 - 06:41:27 (GMT).
JPTRR
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 05:37 PM UTC
KoSprueOne, et. al,

We are talking about nice static models of railroad subjects in the scale 1/35 receiving a model railroad nomenclature letter code for 1/35 of "M", or any other letter that has not been used yet. No intent to animate 1/35 railroad subject.

Military modeling is predominately 1/35. The gist of the question that inspired my inquiry to NMRA was 'if 1/87 is HO scale, and 1/48 (1/43.5 and/or 1/45 in much of Europe) are O scale (etc.), is there a designation for 1/35?'

It is irrelevant what track gauge a modeler models in 1/35 because any gauge will be scaled to 1/35. It is irrelevant if a modeler is modeling standard gauge, broad gauge, narrow gauge, industrial gauge, etc. The 4'8.5" standard gauge/60" broad gauge/meter gauge track and rolling stock will still be scaled to 1/35.

JPTRR
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 05:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Example: One manufacture's 1/35th kit might be gauged to G gauge trackage while another manufacturer's equipment is gauged to actual "scale" track dimensions.

Or: two manufactures both making 1/35th scale trackage but one track possibly being incompatible with the other.



Correct. Getting an NMRA scale code for 1/35, with their standardization oversight, would preclude participating 1/35 manufacturers from "making up" their idea of 1/35 track gauges. Modelers would know that any company that markets "M" scale (or whatever code is used) is compliant with scaling any gauge to 1/35, therefore modelers would not have to worry about Wango Walla Company's 1/35 standard gauge track not being compatible with Blah Blah Company's 1/35 standard gauge track or Goatrope Company's rolling stock; and if Wiztickler Company does not conform to making their 1/35 standard gauge track to actual 1/35, they would not get the "M" code, and modelers would know that company's product is out of scale.
JPTRR
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 05:51 PM UTC
So the question is, is the fuss worth it?

Previous threads ask about how to make 1/35 track. Contributors mention Armor 35 rail, or using Plastruct or other products to simulate rails.

Perhaps trying to standardize a railroad scale for 1/35 would inspire some companies to make more products?

Just musing.
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 07:51 PM UTC
When it comes to tracks, I think it should be as close to fine-scale as possible. So far the 1/35 scale modeling is a static rendering of the real thing. That should go for trains also, I don't build Tigers that have scale concessions to fit. It makes sense to make inquiries of measurements for the design of tracks, sleepers, material in wood or steel, because in Germany or e.g. UK these are totally different from each other.
In the above text I saw one Company that offers an almost fine-scale rendering of the real thing and that is Armor 35. Material is not my favorite but their measurements for a rail switch are, for what I have seen, close to 1/35 scale.
Means a 65cm in length for a normal switch in 1/35 scale.
Yeah, now we are talking.

I recall 1/76 scale in the UK, in fact represents the first 'M scale' as it combines Military and (working) Train models. Still very popular.

More to come later, I made some notes today, have to work that out.
Interesting thread already, because I think we can work this out.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 08:05 PM UTC
Strange how things evolve.

If I recall correctly then Tamiya created a global mess by coincidently introducing 1/35 scale at times when 1/32 was already a widely used standard.

1/32 scale was known as Gauge 1 in the train world, and is still popular with aircraft modellers who regularly discuss if 1/32 and 1/35 are close enough to permit putting 1/35 vehicles in a diorama with an 1/32 aircraft.

Anyway, on the NMRA website; 1/32 is available and I wonder if you can't stick to this standard for 1/35 trains. It would make these models interoperable with existing 1/32 train models.

Just imagine, if modelers would not have bought/build the first Tamiya 1/35 models because it was deviating from the existing 1/32 standard, it would have turned Tamiya to 1/32.

Hence, maybe we need a standardisation of the standardisation, and stop buying anything outside that?











jasegreene
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 - 08:51 PM UTC
This whole thing would be great if we can get it to work.One of my biggest dream projects is the "Krajina Express" in 1/35 scale.