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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Dragon 6780 1/35 German armored truck loaded
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 01:38 AM UTC
Hi.
Some one can tell me if this one is already on the market, or not?
Looks pretty cool.
I checked this site:
https://www.carson-modelsport.com/en/brands/dragon/plastic-kits/kits-135/
Never seen, so don't know what it is worth to trust on.

All info is welcome of course.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Tank1812
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 01:59 AM UTC
Hobbysearch says Aug release.
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10625657
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 02:05 AM UTC
Ok! Thanks for the search. Pre order this one.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
panamadan
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 02:28 AM UTC
You would think all this extra weight would require a 4x4.
Dan
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 02:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You would think all this extra weight would require a 4x4.



Why? 4 wheel drive does not increase load weight capacity. It actually reduces it as the weight of the 4 wheel drive components takes away from the overall weight the vehicle can carry. 4 wheel drive only improves off-road/cross-country capabilty, not load capacity.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 03:39 AM UTC
Dan;

I suspect that the modeled conversion is another "one-off" (think about the CyberHobby Opel Maultier with the 3.7cm FlaK gun on it - done from what is likely to have been a photo of a field conversion done opportunistically on an available vehicle - the gun, let alone w/ crew and ammo, well-exceeded the load capacity of that vehicle...).

Perhaps both the real converters AND the D only had a 4x2 truck on hand to use...! (Dragon, to this point, having demonstrated steadfast reluctance to make a 4x4 Blitz... )

It would definitely have been much more mobile had the conversion used a 4x4 truck. 4x4 does not increase on-road cargo load capacity (and will, in a technical sense, reduce that official rated capacity by the added weight of the front axle gear, etc.) - but it does enable the equipped vehicle to better navigate more un-even surfaces, including both bad road surfaces and off-road travel. Having 4x4 makes the truck more versatile in varied conditions. Which is why, of course, virtually ALL modern military trucks, other then those specifically bought and used for "metalled-road-only" transport service and operation, are all-wheel-drive (4x4, 6x6, etc.).

We WWII armor modelers all "know" the evident propensity of the Germans to try to put a gun on anything which could move under its own power. Often putting way too much weight onto the used vehicle. But need is the mother of expediency. The Germans would likely have used a more-capable 4x4 truck were one on hand - if given the choice, the 4x4 would be the way to go. But, in Dragon's case, at least, the D is probably making use of its Blitz chassis molds (regardless of the true nature of the real truck used - if it WAS a real thing), so we'll get a cool-looking kit of a somewhat over-loaded truck with dubious functional value!

As I love all of these expedient "gun-trucks" and the like, I'll very likely buy this one!
panamadan
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 05:58 AM UTC
Why? Because if could use the extra muscle to move it in off road conditions.
Dan
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 06:14 AM UTC
The gun is only the 2Cm Flak 38 so is well within the load capacity of a Blitz, even a 1.5 ton one and the kit looks like a 3 tonner. I've seen loads of photos of this combination, particularly in Normandy, even a Flakvierling.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 06:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why? Because if could use the extra muscle to move it in off road conditions.



Agreed, but it has nothing to do with the weight of the vehicle or of the load.
ivanhoe6
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 10:47 AM UTC
Dragon news letter hit my inbox today, September 2019 is the release date listed. Looks much like #6828 EXCEPT the future release looks to have some armor plate on the cab.
165thspc
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Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 11:39 PM UTC
The later production "3 ton Blitz" came standard with rear booster springs raising the rated load capacity to 4 tons. Plenty of capacity for the lite flak gun.
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:44 AM UTC
Hi Michael. Are 'booster springs' the reinforced double springs? If so, I thought they only were used under the 4x4 chassis.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 04:08 AM UTC
It is my understanding due to constant, repeated overloading by the troops that the booster springs became a production standard on all Blitz trucks at some point in the war.

However, I agree, the standard early production Blitz had more than enough load capacity to support the 2 cm flak. I AM NOT SAYING THE OPELS WITH THE FLAK GUN HAD TO HAVE BOOSTER SPRINGS! All I AM saying is that late production Blitz would have had the booster springs installed.


My drawing.



Typical booster spring installation.
Photo Source Unknown (I think possibly Frenchy.)



Vehicle under restoration - note booster springs.
Photo Source: https://www.facebook.com/opelblitzproject/



Post war manufactured vehicle - note booster springs.
Photo Source: https://media.daimler.com
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 04:13 AM UTC
Yes my blimb already started to give some light. Now I remember an article on that. I've got a very nice set for that in brass designed for the Dragon Opel Blitz..
Waiting for more details on this kit, I made a reservation / read as pre order already. Just looks very cool IMHO.

Kind regards,

Robert jan
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 05:31 AM UTC
I'll assume that Dragon is using their Opel Blitz 3ton truck kit as the base for this new gun-truck edition - and believe that we can probably safely conclude that this vehicle AS KITTED was NOT over-loaded by carrying the 2cm FlaK 38, ammo, and crew. Whether or not the mentioned booster springs were added. (Are those springs depicted in Dragon's Opel kit?)

Maybe someone out there actually KNOWS whether there really was one of these built and used... I suspect that there was ONE - and that the D has found some pic(s) of it. Dragon has done many one-offs and very rare vehicles over the years, and this is surely one of those rarities. As 3ton Opels were common trucks, it does seem likely that the truck used would have been that 3-tonner - but was it a 4x2 (more common) or a 4x4 (more capable and versatile) truck? Dragon is modeling it as a 4x2, but maybe that's because they have all that already made and available?

Pics of real Opels-w-2cm FlaK 38 are pretty common - a fair number of these were "built" by units throughout the war - almost all of which were single-gun conversions, with or without shields. And both 4x2 and 4x4 trucks were used.

The field conversion was common enough that a special "FlaK-sled" kit was developed and issued to facilitate using 2cm FlaK 38 in cargo trucks - maybe this kit will include that item, too?

There are, on the other hand, very few pics showing any sort of armored Opel Blitz... A couple that I've seen show a fairly-"formal-looking" (so, built at an equipped facility as versus in some unit shop) armored front end with a specially-built bed for a FlaK gun - this truck is NOT the one being kitted. I did some Google searches and could not find anything which looked like the kit - only means that I couldn't find a pic, of course! - but armored Opels were extremely rare.

There was a 1/72 scale "MAC" kit out several years ago of what looks to be this same or very similar configuration - it shows up in build pics on the web.

Given as this thing was a rarity or maybe a one... A photo or 3 would be of GREAT help in building it to best represent real history - probably more-accuracy-minded modelers will find themselves constrained in painting it up...

For others, it is a cool-looking truck, regardless of kit versus historical details. I plan on getting it when it boils off its new-release / rare kit price!
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 06:49 AM UTC
OK, HERE WE GO!

Early production Blitz (note generous use of sheet metal for rear fenders.)
With 2 cm Flak gun mounted; AND NO BOOSTER SPRINGS!


Photo Source: http://theminiaturespage.com
BogiBg
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 08:08 AM UTC
Michael, since I am preparing to build this particular truck for anti aircraft campaign, I studyed that picture and came to the conclusion that something is wrong with that cargo bed. It is not early low mounted cargo bed since there should be hols where wheel arches should be. You can see inserts between frame an cargo bed which I didn't see on any other truck. And, those back arches are totally atypical for Opel Blitz. I think that this truck was one off field modification. Correct me if I am wrong, you will do me a favour.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 08:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi.
Some one can tell me if this one is already on the market, or not?
Looks pretty cool.
I checked this site:
https://www.carson-modelsport.com/en/brands/dragon/plastic-kits/kits-135/
Never seen, so don't know what it is worth to trust on.

All info is welcome of course.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan



Hello Robert and Everyone Else!

Beware of "DS" Tires in this new DRAGON "Blitz" kit. I KNOW how all of you like "DS"-plastic oh, so much...
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 10:40 AM UTC
[/quote]

Hello Robert and Everyone Else!

Beware of "DS" Tires in this new DRAGON "Blitz" kit. I KNOW how all of you like "DS"-plastic oh, so much... [/quote]

Fortune, and Mr. D, apparently are, up to this point, smiling upon us DS-haters! No "auto-rotting" DS tires appear in any of the Dragon Blitz kits! Yay!

But there's always a "first time" for everything!

Bob
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 10:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Michael, since I am preparing to build this particular truck for anti aircraft campaign, I studyed that picture and came to the conclusion that something is wrong with that cargo bed. It is not early low mounted cargo bed since there should be hols where wheel arches should be. You can see inserts between frame an cargo bed which I didn't see on any other truck. And, those back arches are totally atypical for Opel Blitz. I think that this truck was one off field modification. Correct me if I am wrong, you will do me a favour.



Bog, I don't have any exact info on the point you have just raised here. However I do know by observing various period Blitz photos that there are/were three different bed heights built for the Opel Blitz 3.6.

First you have the high bed (dock height) load bed that we are most familiar with. Then you have a somewhat lower bed that sits right on the top of the rear fenders (as seen above with the 2 cm flak.) Finally you have the low (curb side - my naming) load bed where the rear fenders penetrate up thru the deck of the load bed, most often seen carrying a shelter box - radio, weather, ambulance, etc.

High Bed:

Mike Koenig Photo

Medium Height Bed:


Low Bed:


_____________________________________

p.s. Something that often causes further confusion: In many cases Opel mounted the bed high but then attached the rear fenders right up against the underside of the wood floor making it confusing as to if a given truck is a high or medium height load bed.


Mike Koenig Photo
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 11:12 AM UTC
Bog, you also have the choice of early (long tail) rear fenders like the med height truck or short abbreviated fenders like those shown directly above - - or no rear fenders at all!
panamadan
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 11:16 AM UTC
Putting the 2cm in the bed is not the issue, but the extra weight in the front with armor plate, again 4x4 would really help here.
Dan
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 11:35 AM UTC
With the gun weighing in at only 992 pounds I don't think the medium/lite armor is going to weigh much more than the gun.

So the totals around one ton then add to that the ammo and crew. I think that truck can handle it.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 12:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

With the gun weighing in at only 992 pounds I don't think the medium/lite armor is going to weigh much more than the gun.

So the totals around one ton then add to that the ammo and crew. I think that truck can handle it.



Maybe what Dan is talking about isn't simple carry-weight (a 3-tonner could certainly carry the 2cm gun, some ammo, and a crew - in the cargo bed - without much difficulty)...? Maybe it's more about "drivability"? And certainly about driving off road.

These trucks probably did not have power steering (I have not found any evidence that they did have it, so...). Putting an extra several hundred or maybe near 1000 lbs of added armor weight over the front wheels certainly made it pretty nose-heavy and more difficult to steer. Having 4x4 would greatly enhance its rough-road and off-road capability, and could help a driver coping with the tough job of controlling and actually turning the thing at slower speeds. But then think about the famous Opel "peer" - the Soviet 3-ton Zis-5 truck... that one not only lacked power steering... most lacked any front brakes! Think about driving one of those!

Try putting say 40 - 50 pounds of weight into the front end of an otherwise empty shopping cart... The cart can definitely handle the weight... And you'll definitely feel its nose-heaviness and increased difficulty in steering!

But perhaps this really isn't the question - either the kitted truck did or did not actually have 4x4? - whether the kit has it or not.

Just a thought. Bob
SpeedyJ
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Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 08:28 PM UTC
Take a side step. Think these guns are loaded on a 1.5ton truck?

From the Friday Ebay photo score on Missing-Lynx.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan