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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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Is there such a thing as the MATV phalanx?
knewton
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 12:26 PM UTC
The reason I ask is that Panda is to release one in 2020. I did search it, & if genuine, I'll get one for the cool factor.

That is 1/35 scale, too.
Vodnik
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 06:56 PM UTC
There is just this conceptual art:



No such thing in reality. The real Phalanx is WAY too large to fit on MATV.

It barely fits on a HEMTT... The boxes at the rear are needed for it to work too.



knewton
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 07:18 PM UTC
Cheers, Vodnik, I suspected as much. I saw the news on a reputable website, too.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 07:28 PM UTC
Testing some other image links



knewton
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 08:34 PM UTC
Robin, is that on preorder anywhere?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 08:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Robin, is that on preorder anywhere?



Umm, you would have to ask the developers and/or the procurement agencies (DoD) if they will let you buy a system. I suspect it comes with a hefty price tag:
https://defense-update.com/20110124_centurion_subsys.html
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/raytheons-mobile-land-based-phalanx-weapon-system-completes-live-fire-demonstration.88998/
I guess that you will also have to provide end-user statements and enter into agreements about keeping secrets and stuff ....
There might also be a minimum order ...
Getting ammo could be tricky, depends on the laws in New Zeeland ...

If you could consider small scale models like 1/160 (sub-mini-braille scale) there is this on Shapeways:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/P2BU8PYA9/hemtt-a3-centurion-ciws-phalanx-1-160-n-scale



Maybe a Trumpeter HEMTT and this:

could be a starting point for an ambitious scratch builder
Maki
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 09:30 PM UTC
RPG Models recently announced Phalanx in 1/35 scale... so there will be another option along with the Hobby Fan offering.

link

Mario
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 09:36 PM UTC
The trailer-mounted C-RAM version has been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7zNCl94fI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEgFlwlCDS8

H.P.
Vodnik
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 10:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The trailer-mounted C-RAM version has been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7zNCl94fI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEgFlwlCDS8

H.P.


Pretty hefty trailers those are Not M-ATV size
b2nhvi
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 11:43 PM UTC
Not to mention the ammo issue. Your platform has to be able haul the weapon system but also enough ammo to make it worth the effort. Best weapon system in the wold is a paper weight if it can only carry a nano second's worth of ammo. The outfit making the 1/35 Phalanx also makes a version with a missile system (sea sparrow?) That on a proper chassis would make a good Air Defense set up (which, as far as I know, the US doesn't have anything between the Patriot and a grunt with a Stinger on his shoulder)
b2nhvi
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Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 - 11:53 PM UTC
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/rpg-model-35004-mk-15-mod31-searam-close-in-weapon-system--1213860 Just a thought.... What need is there for Air Defense in Afghanistan? Defense against flying carpets? (Need to make a warhead with carpet beetles )
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 12:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What need is there for Air Defense in Afghanistan? Defense against flying carpets?



No flying carpets there, but 107mm Chinese-made rockets which are much more lethal.... :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/21/meet-the-massive-guns-protecting-u-s-bases-from-rocket-attacks-in-afghanistan/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f6ca2145287b

H.P.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 12:10 AM UTC
Phalanx system: Weight 13,699 lb. (6,120 kg)
Numbers taken from http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-103.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_M-ATV
MATV payload is 4000 lb but that is for the MATV,
if we assume that we could gain some payload by turning it
into a pick-up truck we might possibly get another 1000 lb
or maybe even 2000 lb.
This would still leave us with close to 8000 pounds unaccounted for. We need at least 2.5 MATVs to carry the load .....




HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 12:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...a good Air Defense set up (which, as far as I know, the US doesn't have anything between the Patriot and a grunt with a Stinger on his shoulder)



US Army still uses Avenger ADA systems on HMMWVs for SHORAD.



They are looking at a replacement SHORAD systems as well.



b2nhvi
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Posted: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 05:02 PM UTC
I heard something was in the works using the Stryker as a base. I thought I'd heard the Avenger, Linebacker, and USMC's LAV based AD units were retired. Didn't know the Phalanx could engage something small like a 106mm rocket, thought it was just for cruise missiles and aircraft. Cute story I heard from when the Navy was developing the system ... They had set one up on a target destroyer off the coast of Cal. Had fired a couple test "missiles" at it, which were successfully engaged. Then someone got the brilliant idea, "What if we launch TWO at the same time?" Targeting system picked up two "vampires" inbound. Looked at one. Looked at the other. Couldn't decide which was the bigger threat, sooo ... TILT! It rebooted and bothe missiles hit.
Trisaw
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Posted: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 - 02:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not to mention the ammo issue. Your platform has to be able haul the weapon system but also enough ammo to make it worth the effort. Best weapon system in the wold is a paper weight if it can only carry a nano second's worth of ammo. The outfit making the 1/35 Phalanx also makes a version with a missile system (sea sparrow?) That on a proper chassis would make a good Air Defense set up (which, as far as I know, the US doesn't have anything between the Patriot and a grunt with a Stinger on his shoulder)



The U.S. Army decided to go with the Leonardo DRS turret for air defense, which makes sense since it packs a 30mm cannon, four Stinger missile pod, and two Hellfires all in one turret so it can tackle air, drone, and ground targets. JLTVs might get something similar.

https://www.leonardodrs.com/news-and-events/press-releases/leonardo-drs-down-selected-to-provide-us-army-with-im-shorad-prototypes

Gino's photo of the green Stryker Multiple Stryker Launcher (MSL) is the one that I believe can mount the AIM-9X which has an air range of about 22 miles, probably less when ground launched, but sure beats five mile range for the Stinger. The U.S. Army decided not to go with the MSL for the time being, but besides the MML, the MSL is the only one I know of that can carry and launch the AIM-9X. I don't know if the Avengers can mount AIM-9X (never saw one that did) and that is the problem when you have a SHORAD system based almost exclusively on short-ranged Stingers.

The U.S. Army is also testing the Multiple Mission Launcher (MML), fifteen boxes that can launch Hellfire, Stinger, AIM-9X, and Tamir interceptor missile (IDF Iron Dome). However, there was a report citing an issue with the overall launcher/truck design.

https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/styles/desktop__1486_x_614/public/main_images/mml.jpg?itok=C4ZEFlIp

The Phalanx 11-cell SeaRAM is used for counter-missile fire. It combines a Stinger seeker with a Sidewinder missile warhead and body. I doubt that it is ground mounted.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2016/january/Raytheon_SeaRAM_anti_ship_defense_system_launched_a_RAM_Block_2_missile_for_the_first_time_640_002.jpg

Do not confuse SeaRAM with the original RAM RIM 116 launcher which has 21-cells, almost double the amount of missiles, but it has no radar for self-contained fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-116_Rolling_Airframe_Missile#/media/File:RIM-116_Rolling_Airframe_Missile_Launcher_3.jpg

So in many ways, the U.S. Army really needs that MML or MSL to carry and launch the AIM-9X for about a 20+ mile range or else risk being an all-Stinger mobile SAM force still.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 - 08:43 PM UTC
"The U.S. Army decided to go with the Leonardo DRS turret for air defense, which makes sense since it packs a 30mm cannon, four Stinger missile pod, and two Hellfires " ..... and a partridge in a pear tree ???? (195 more shopping days till Christmas, by the by.)
warmonger
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Posted: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 - 09:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What need is there for Air Defense in Afghanistan? Defense against flying carpets?



No flying carpets there, but 107mm Chinese-made rockets which are much more lethal.... :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/21/meet-the-massive-guns-protecting-u-s-bases-from-rocket-attacks-in-afghanistan/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f6ca2145287b
I would hate to be down range when the shells that missed come raining down. If they are high explosive, it wouldn't even have to hit you.
H.P.

linkname
gcdavidson
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 08:44 AM UTC
Jordan operates the M-163 Turret (20mm Gatling) on their 6x6 Cougar MRAP. I wonder if that is what the confusion was?

Frenchy
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 09:13 AM UTC
More views :





Talking about the M-ATV, here's a genuine low-budget add-on, seen in Yemen :





from https://southfront.org/saudi-led-coalitions-deliveries-of-armoured-vehicles-to-its-allies-in-yemen/


H.P.
Trisaw
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 10:28 AM UTC



More information about Frenchy's post here:

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/02/middleeast/yemen-lost-us-arms

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 11:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

There is just this conceptual art:



No such thing in reality. The real Phalanx is WAY too large to fit on MATV.

It barely fits on a HEMTT... The boxes at the rear are needed for it to work too.






Nooo. Not possible- It'd be like mounting an 8-inch Howitzer or 155mm "Long Tom" on a Dodge WC-series Truck or in an M8 HMC..!
exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 01:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So in many ways, the U.S. Army really needs that MML or MSL to carry and launch the AIM-9X for about a 20+ mile range or else risk being an all-Stinger mobile SAM force still.



The US is still in a world of hurt regarding Air Defense. You've got nothing between light, short range IR guided SAM's (consisting of decades old Stingers) and heavy, fixed Patriot batteries (which one assumes would be a priority target if we ever fight against a peer). Adding optically guided MG's or Hellfires isn't going to change anything. A Hellfire, which was designed to target nothing moving faster than a tank, has little ability to take down a fast jet or an agile UAV. Compare that to the layered defenses that the "bad guys" have. The funny thing is that the US actually already has a very effective, radar guided, medium range SAM deployed in service. Apparently though, this system will never leave the confines of the USA.
covkid
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Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 04:06 AM UTC
RPG ScaleModel are to do a Phalanx in 1/35. Never heard of them before but it is due out this year. Worth considering?

Regards Jason
Trisaw
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Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 12:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


So in many ways, the U.S. Army really needs that MML or MSL to carry and launch the AIM-9X for about a 20+ mile range or else risk being an all-Stinger mobile SAM force still.



The US is still in a world of hurt regarding Air Defense. You've got nothing between light, short range IR guided SAM's (consisting of decades old Stingers) and heavy, fixed Patriot batteries (which one assumes would be a priority target if we ever fight against a peer). Adding optically guided MG's or Hellfires isn't going to change anything. A Hellfire, which was designed to target nothing moving faster than a tank, has little ability to take down a fast jet or an agile UAV. Compare that to the layered defenses that the "bad guys" have. The funny thing is that the US actually already has a very effective, radar guided, medium range SAM deployed in service. Apparently though, this system will never leave the confines of the USA.



Yes, the NASAM at fixed locations, which isn't USA made. And agreed, the USA is woefully inadequate in SAM defense because it relied on the USAF. One can arm helicopters with Stingers and Sidewinders as an added defense.

I think the USA made a mistake in adopting the upgraded Patriot PAC-3s trailer launchers and not the MEADS system. The Army concluded that since it already has the Patriot components, it will keep upgrading them, but current Patriot radar can't see 360-degrees like MEADS. The Army is working to replace the Patriot radar with one that covers 360-degrees, but still it takes a long time to set the Patriot launcher in place. MEADS was Internationally developed with USA funding and help because Patriot wasn't light and mobile enough. Only the USA didn't adopt it.

Then there's SLAMRAAM which was tested and didn't get anywhere. And USMC LAV-AD that apparently got scrapped from the books and no one ones why.

The US Navy has RIM-162 ESSM that goes out to 50+KM at Mach 4+, but at about $1 million per missile, I doubt the US Army might field it.

I think the best approach for the USA would be to buy all the IDF SAM types from Arrow to David's Sling to Iron Dome and then make THAAD into THAAD-ER. THAAD-ER has much better performance parameters and range than original THAAD.