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Cars: Other Racing
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Ebbro 1/20 scale Brabham BT18 F2
Joel_W
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Posted: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 - 12:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel,

You have clearly mastered the full spectrum of silvers and greys - wow - the rolling chassis looks great!

Thanks for posting the GT - nice build. The weathered effect is very convincing - looks very realistic

Cheers
Nick




Nick,
Thanks for checking out my BT 18 build to date, I really appreciate it. Getting the Variations in Metallics wasn't that hard, as I used the full spectrum of Alcad2's trying to match them to pictures. In some cases I mixed a darker or lighter color to a stock color to replicate a casting the best I could.

As for the Ford GT, I only wish I had the skill set both building, painting, and weathering that Ismael has. He has a C5 Corvette in a full diorama that I actually thought was the winning car. He's what I would call a Grand Master. He's just that good.

Joel
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Posted: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 - 08:24 AM UTC
Hi Joel

That's fantastic! Many thanks for your eye-witness guidance on how to finish my Lotus. My gut feeling was that the car would be thoroughly spruced up for every race, but you can't do better than ask someone who actually saw the real thing at the time!

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - 10:37 PM UTC
stunning work Joel!
Joel_W
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Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2019 - 05:26 AM UTC

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stunning work Joel!




Russell,
Thanks my friend for those most appreciative words.

Joel
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Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2019 - 05:31 AM UTC
Just a quick update with no pictures.

I just finished installing the bottom three radiator pipes, and the top two radiator pipes to the engine. What a bear they were to install. A quick test fit of the bottom and top shells, and lets just say it's rather tight

I glued up the lower front body shell to the top shell, and while the fit was pretty good, it does need a little body work as I believe the real deal is a single piece.

Looking forward to starting the painting process.

Joel
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 07:35 AM UTC
I've never had this issue before, and have absolutely no idea how to deal with it.

Two of the three body sections have imperfections in the plastic. They look like lines that go right through the plastic shells. I use to think that they were caused by impurities in the liquid plastic as it was injected into the molds. I've had them appear from time to time, but lacquer primer has always covered them. That is until today.

I've reached to stage of painting the BT18. So I cleaned all the parts with Iso Alcohol, and air dried them.

I primed the body shells with Mr. Hobby 's Mr. Finishing Surface Primer1500 Gray, and thinned it 50/50 with Mr. Color Leveling Thinner #400. I applied the primer with my Grex Genesis air brush with a .3mm setup @ a flow rate of 16 psi. Two light coats, and then two heavier coats. I let this dry for 24 hrs. I then very lightly wet sanded with a piece of Tamiya 3,000 sponge. Those lines were still there but less noticeable, so I figured that they disappear with the color coats.

My next paint session was applying the color coats. I always air brush my color coats with my other Grex AB that has a .5mm setup, at a flow rate of 16 psi. As usual the paint used was Gravity pre-thinned lacquer, and it was a new bottle. Two tack coats, then two heavier color coats, with the last coat being a wet coat.

The lines are all still visible. So now I need to strip all three body assemblies and start over, which I've never had to do before. What's the best method for stripping the lacquer paint? And how do I deal with those lines in the plastic?

Joel
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 08:06 AM UTC
Hi Joel

This is really disappointing! I'll go and double-check my Lotus in case I missed anything similar on it!

I've posted a suggestion on stripping and filling in your other thread, but I really do think it would be worth seeking replacement parts with a kit of this quality and cost.

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 08:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel

This is really disappointing! I'll go and double-check my Lotus in case I missed anything similar on it!

I've posted a suggestion on stripping and filling in your other thread, but I really do think it would be worth seeking replacement parts with a kit of this quality and cost.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
I'm going to check my other Ebbro kits. Like I said, I had this issue with my Lotus 72E, but the black paint covered it up.

I'm still waiting for a reply and or parts from Ebbro for the 72E as I had to epoxy one wheel, and asked for a replacement that I was more then willing to pay for. Never heard a word from them.

Joel
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 09:51 AM UTC
Major Update,
I decided to help the X20-A along and started to work all three body parts with a piece of #600 emery cloth, and those lines were gone as I must have ruffed up the surface enough. I checked the inside and they were still there. So, I went over the surfaces with a piece of .3,000 sponge, and now the surfaces are all smooth with no molding shine, and so far no lines that I can see!!

Tomorrow I'll go over all the sections again, and if I don't see any sign of those lines, I'll re-prime with Mr. Hobby 1500 again, and go from there.

Just knew that the modeling Gods would find away of testing me, as the BT18 has been a true joy to build so far.

Joel
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 11:00 PM UTC
Hi Joel

sorry to hear of your troubles with the plastic.

The lines you mentioned are probably "weld lines", which is the point at which two melt fronts of molten plastic meet as it is injected into the mold.

As you've discovered the best way to conceal this is to prep the area by sanding it prior to applying a "hot" (enamel/lacquer) type of paint.
Joel_W
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 12:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel

sorry to hear of your troubles with the plastic.

The lines you mentioned are probably "weld lines", which is the point at which two melt fronts of molten plastic meet as it is injected into the mold.

As you've discovered the best way to conceal this is to prep the area by sanding it prior to applying a "hot" (enamel/lacquer) type of paint.




Russell,
Thanks for that information. It makes more sense then my contamination theory. I've rarely had this issue before in all the years that I've been modeling, and somehow it always managed to solve itself.

As I posted earlier, I had this issue to a lesser extent on the Ebbro Lotus 72E, but the all Black Gloss finish must have masked that line.

I'm be finishing up the sanding and polishing this morning, then AB'ing on the Mr. Hobby 1500 Gray finisher/Primer. Will leave the color coats for later this week as I'm still old school when it comes to letting even Lacquer paints fully gas out and cure for a min of 24 hrs.

Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 19, 2019 - 09:31 AM UTC
Finally another update.

Well the adventure of those imperfection lines in the plastic as I posted have been taken care of.

I didn't remember taking any pictures, but I guess I just forgot. Here's the basic imperfection in the top of the shell.



and here's a post sanding but not polished as yet picture without those pesky swirls.



After those swirl marks showed up, I did a few Google searches on reviews of the kit, and found a link to a Eastern European modeling site that was actually in both languages. Now that's a really nice touch. Anyway, they had posted pictures of the sprue trees, so I checked out the one with the shells, and guess what? They also had those same swirl marks in the same places.



Now that threw all of theories we came up with, as there is no way that my kit and theirs are from the same pour. So it has to be something with the melted plastic. Then a few day later I was watching a video on You Tube by Paul of the International ScaleModeler building a Tamiya 1/24 scale Mercedes kit. And when he had a close up of the body there were those swirl marks again. Now Tamiya and Ebbro are basically the same company, so the kits are most likely molded from the same plastic in the same machines. At this point I really have no idea of what the issue is, but light sanding/polishing prior to priming takes care of the problem. so that's my new building procedure.

Ok, enough of the swirls, and back to the BT18.

I once again primed with Mr. Hobby 1,500 primer thinned 1:1 with Mr. Hobby leveling Thinner.



And the swirls were gone for good.

I let the body parts dry overnight, then they were all lightly wet sanded with #3,000 Tamiya Sponge. Now it's time once again to repaint the 3 body shell parts with Gravity's GC 113 BRG. Two tack coats, followed by 2 wet coats. Looks darn good by my standards

I gave the shells a full 24 hours to cure, then I lightly wet sanded them with Tamiya #3,000 sponge. I only wish that they made grits to 12,000. I've yet to find a resource that sells sheets of Emery cloth separately, not in those little expensive packs of 5 sheets each.

I gave the shells a wipe with my tack cloth, then proceeded to apply the kit decals. Now I haven't used kit decals in quite a while, as I prefer AM decals whenever possible. I used my modified Paul Budzik's procedure of Microscale set, sol, and then Walthers Solvaset.

The decals after 15 seconds in warm water came right off the backing paper. But they sure didn't want to stick to the polished plastic without letting each solution setup for a good min or so. Once down, they looked pretty good.







there are no panel lines, so I don't know how well they would settle down into them. But from all the issues I had with getting the stripe to conform to the small top intake, I have my doubts. It took several applications of Solvaset to win that battle.

One issue I had is that the side number circles and numbers are each separate so they have to be layered. I let the circles dry off for a full 24 hours before applying the numbers. Also they opted to make both the numbers and the circles in upper and lower pieces. While that makes not having to deal with those rather large gaps, once dry, you see a black separation line between. So I hand painted the white as it would have looked folded over, but not the black. I have a few places to touch up, but it solved the problem, as you can see from looking at the body panel pictures.



Thanks for stopping by and checking out my BT18 to date. As usual, it's always appreciated.

Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 19, 2019 - 07:31 PM UTC
Hi Joel,

Nice work - the body is shaping up to look really good!

I wonder what the origin of the “swirls” in the plastic is? Like many of you, I’ve seen those before too - I paint with acrylics which seem to paint over/past the edge/surface. I can imagine your surprise/irritation and so on when you saw the result post painting. The only parallel experience I’ve had from time to time, is with resin - when, no matter the primer, Tamiya spray or Vallejo acrylic, etc a faint discoloration/“puddle” on the part insists on bleeding through and even to the base coat!! My guess here is that there’s some chemical imperfection that is not simply a surface condition....if these are really evident...out come the weathering tricks!

Keep up the good work -
Cheers
Nick
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Posted: Saturday, April 20, 2019 - 01:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel,

Nice work - the body is shaping up to look really good!

I wonder what the origin of the “swirls” in the plastic is? Like many of you, I’ve seen those before too - I paint with acrylics which seem to paint over/past the edge/surface. I can imagine your surprise/irritation and so on when you saw the result post painting. The only parallel experience I’ve had from time to time, is with resin - when, no matter the primer, Tamiya spray or Vallejo acrylic, etc a faint discoloration/“puddle” on the part insists on bleeding through and even to the base coat!! My guess here is that there’s some chemical imperfection that is not simply a surface condition....if these are really evident...out come the weathering tricks!

Keep up the good work -
Cheers
Nick




Nick,
Thanks so much for stopping by and checking out my BT18 build to date. It's always much appreciated.

As for those swirls and resulting issues, I gave in and did a few Google searchers. I finally came up with some sensible answers. 1st, the problem is very common. The less adherence to molding Quality Controls, the more issues you're going to have. In our case of plastic injected models, the sprue trees are knocked out as quickly and cheaply as possible. Hence, one of the major factoring issues.

Here's what one of the swirls actually looks like. You can clearly see that the density of the plastic is different before and after the swirl.



The greater the difference in density, the harder it is for our paints to cover it up so we end up with a uniform and consistent surface. Sanding/polishing ruffs up the surface and creates a uniform surface to paint on.

What I found in my searches is that this and related problems are caused by several issues.

1-The temp of the liquification of the Plastic pellets is to high, causes excess gases to be trapped within the liquid. In the above picture you can see the bubbles of the trapped gases.

2- To high of an injection pressure.

3-Contaminants of both the liquid Plastic and or the molds.

These are main issues mentioned in several of the articles I read. It's pretty obvious that reducing costs are a major consideration to profitability, and the results are swirls, short molds, & cracked parts (especially clear parts).

Joel
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Posted: Sunday, April 21, 2019 - 10:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Joel

sorry to hear of your troubles with the plastic.

The lines you mentioned are probably "weld lines", which is the point at which two melt fronts of molten plastic meet as it is injected into the mold.

As you've discovered the best way to conceal this is to prep the area by sanding it prior to applying a "hot" (enamel/lacquer) type of paint.




Russell,
Thanks for that information. It makes more sense then my contamination theory. I've rarely had this issue before in all the years that I've been modeling, and somehow it always managed to solve itself.

As I posted earlier, I had this issue to a lesser extent on the Ebbro Lotus 72E, but the all Black Gloss finish must have masked that line.

I'm be finishing up the sanding and polishing this morning, then AB'ing on the Mr. Hobby 1500 Gray finisher/Primer. Will leave the color coats for later this week as I'm still old school when it comes to letting even Lacquer paints fully gas out and cure for a min of 24 hrs.

Joel



Hi Joel

as you've discovered the art of injection molding is just that: It's as much art as is it is science, but from looking at the pictures I can confirm that they are most definitely "weld" lines.

As you'll notice you've got an opening in the plastic and on one side you've got the weld lines. That's because the molten plastic has hit the "island" (or shut-off as we call it in the trade) and has flowed around it.

The flow fronts then meet on the other side of the "island" and form what is known as a "weld" line.

Good molders will know how to minimize this by various means: Altering the packing profile, raising/lowering the temp of the mold or barrel, playing with the cycle time and so on.

But, of course, as you've discovered, and this is even more prevalent on short run kits, cost is a big factor as to whether a molder will work to avoid these faults or just to pump out the parts.

Hopefully this gives you and your audience a small glimpse into the "mysterious" world of injection molding...

BTW, the car's looking great!
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Posted: Monday, April 22, 2019 - 12:44 AM UTC
Russell,
You really know your stuff about plastic injection molding. I'm assuming you work in that field or a related field to have this kind of knowledge base. At least the results of what I'll term as poor molding is curable so that we can get a uniform and consistent surface to build and paint on.

Joel
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Posted: Monday, April 22, 2019 - 08:28 AM UTC
Hi Joel

It's looking great in its racing trim!

The silver lining to your earlier problem is that it's been a learning lesson for many of us. Thanks for your explanation, Russell.

I've checked my Ebbro Lotus 49B and there are some definite swirls in the body panels. As far as I can tell, they won't show through the paintwork - but, then, while I've often found swirls, I've never known them to be a problem until this build highlighted the potential trouble they can cause.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I seldom (if ever) prime mainstream kits - but I might just do so this time to be on the safe side.

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Monday, April 22, 2019 - 03:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Russell,
You really know your stuff about plastic injection molding. I'm assuming you work in that field or a related field to have this kind of knowledge base. At least the results of what I'll term as poor molding is curable so that we can get a uniform and consistent surface to build and paint on.

Joel



Something like that Joel

I'm a qualified product designer with 23 years experience working as lead designer for an injection molding tool room... So you could say some of it has seeped in.

Always remember the golden rule with plastics: if you're ever going to paint or plate, prior surface treatment is vital. Washing the parts to remove mold release agent etc. should be standard procedure on every kit before assembly begins.

For gloss finishes on items such as car bodies, rubbing down the parts with P600 grit sandpaper (or finer) to remove any blemishes can also be considered essential prep work.


Quoted Text

Hi Joel

It's looking great in its racing trim!

The silver lining to your earlier problem is that it's been a learning lesson for many of us. Thanks for your explanation, Russell.

I've checked my Ebbro Lotus 49B and there are some definite swirls in the body panels. As far as I can tell, they won't show through the paintwork - but, then, while I've often found swirls, I've never known them to be a problem until this build highlighted the potential trouble they can cause.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I seldom (if ever) prime mainstream kits - but I might just do so this time to be on the safe side.

All the best

Rowan



Hi Rowan, hopefully I have shed a bit of light on IM.

In addition to what I've mentioned above primer coats can certainly help show up any glaring imperfections you didn't catch the first time round with the Mk1 eyeball depending on the type of paint you are using (acrylic/enamel)
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Posted: Monday, April 22, 2019 - 04:12 PM UTC
Joel, you've done a great job getting the body to such a good looking state with the paint job and markings. I'm really looking forward to the first glimpse of the inevitable body-to-frame test fit!

Russ, huge thanks for your input and insight. It really is useful to have an expert on hand to give us a deeper understanding of the material we work with. Now get that Pontiac back on the bench!

Rowan, until very recently I was like you, never used primer on mainstream kits, but they were mainly aircraft where the finish was going to be varied in colour and weathered finish. Now that I have swung across to mainly car builds where there are acres of gloss in a single colour, I honestly believe that priming is essential even if it is to cover the smallest variation in surface texture from sanding.

Cheers, D
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Posted: Monday, April 22, 2019 - 08:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Joel, you've done a great job getting the body to such a good looking state with the paint job and markings. I'm really looking forward to the first glimpse of the inevitable body-to-frame test fit!

Russ, huge thanks for your input and insight. It really is useful to have an expert on hand to give us a deeper understanding of the material we work with. Now get that Pontiac back on the bench!

Rowan, until very recently I was like you, never used primer on mainstream kits, but they were mainly aircraft where the finish was going to be varied in colour and weathered finish. Now that I have swung across to mainly car builds where there are acres of gloss in a single colour, I honestly believe that priming is essential even if it is to cover the smallest variation in surface texture from sanding.

Cheers, D



Glad to be of assistance over here in the Auto shop!

I should clarify perhaps, that although handy, primer is just an optional step on the path to getting that elusive smooth, glossy, finish.

It should regarded as part of a process of sand, fill (if required), sand, prime, sand again. Relying just on primer to fill blemishes may not result in the finish you desire as it is not designed to "fill" imperfections in the plastic. Only sanding/filling can achieve that.

Yes, there are some primers that are designed to fill imperfections, but I still sand them down before top coating to achieve the smooth glossy finish you're after.

As for the Trans Am, well.... It's made its way into the house from the garage ready to hit the bench again (as soon as the King is wrapped up )
Joel_W
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Posted: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 - 09:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel

It's looking great in its racing trim!

The silver lining to your earlier problem is that it's been a learning lesson for many of us. Thanks for your explanation, Russell.

I've checked my Ebbro Lotus 49B and there are some definite swirls in the body panels. As far as I can tell, they won't show through the paintwork - but, then, while I've often found swirls, I've never known them to be a problem until this build highlighted the potential trouble they can cause.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I seldom (if ever) prime mainstream kits - but I might just do so this time to be on the safe side.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
Thanks so much my friend for your Thumbs up on the BT18 build, as I'm getting mighty close to the finish line.

Since my last update post, I've glossed both the upper and lower body shells, striped the engine cover that I'll only use for show, but keep it off when it heads to it's display home. I've sanded the swirl marks on it with 600, and they're all gone now. Then I followed it up with some 1,200 sponge, and gave it a nice warm bath. Then painted it. Just glossed it today, so it has two days worth of drying to do.

Today, I polished and waxed those two shells, and I'm going to have to post a Eye Warning prior to having anyone view them. Talk about a mile deep shine!!

As far not priming, well, it depends on whose paint, and what type. If you're going with the Red/Silver paint scheme, both colors need a primer or you'll be adding coat after coat. In the long run, priming will be a much shorter route, with a more consistent finish.

BTW, what the latest on your MGB?

Joel

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Posted: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 - 09:05 AM UTC
Russell,
Now I know why you really know all of this stuff. You should get a job with Tamiya, and be our inside spy.

I'm glad that I dug into the problem and came up with some of the proper reasons. At least now I know what causes those swirls, and how to properly deal with them.

Joel
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Posted: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 - 09:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Joel, you've done a great job getting the body to such a good looking state with the paint job and markings. I'm really looking forward to the first glimpse of the inevitable body-to-frame test fit!
Cheers, D




D,

Thanks so much my friend for your really positive comments, they're greatly appreciated coming from you.

As I posted in my reply to Rowan, the two main shells are now polished and waxed, and they're by far by best finishes to date. As long as my next build is better then my last build, I'm thrilled with my progress.

My next build is now down to two closed wheel racing cars from the past. Gotta make a decision soon and start my due diligence for the build. Paint & decals are already in house as I buy them when I buy my kits. Two less things to worry about when the build starts.

Joel
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 07:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW, what the latest on your MGB?



Hi Joel

The poor old MGB's serving as a test bed for polishing at the moment. The body shell really needs stripping right down and starting again, because I managed to sand through the primer when the first gloss coat revealed irregularities that the matt undercoat had led me to believe were sorted...

As you can probably tell, I'm not a total convert when it comes to primers.

But, as regards the gloss top coat - once it had fully cured, it polished up beautifully with a bit of Mk. 1 elbow grease - a real mirror-finish. So, I'm confident that Humbrol's enamel can work - I'll just spray a gloss base coat next time (like I would on a n/m aircraft) to make sure I don't get suckered into thinking the surface is ready when it isn't.

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 08:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

BTW, what the latest on your MGB?



Hi Joel

The poor old MGB's serving as a test bed for polishing at the moment. The body shell really needs stripping right down and starting again, because I managed to sand through the primer when the first gloss coat revealed irregularities that the matt undercoat had led me to believe were sorted...

As you can probably tell, I'm not a total convert when it comes to primers.

But, as regards the gloss top coat - once it had fully cured, it polished up beautifully with a bit of Mk. 1 elbow grease - a real mirror-finish. So, I'm confident that Humbrol's enamel can work - I'll just spray a gloss base coat next time (like I would on a n/m aircraft) to make sure I don't get suckered into thinking the surface is ready when it isn't.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
At least the B isn't officially dead. I'm weakening by the day, and will be getting one of new 1/24 scale kits. I'm going to attempt to convert it to left hand drive including the pedals. Just gotta have my true love in my collection.

Did I ever tell you that my life long friend, who was my racing team manager and co-wrench with me, died this past winter at just 72 Anyway, when his family went through his wallet, he still had the picture I gave him of me driving the B at Bridgehampton. I finished 2nd that day, but I did manage to scare myself silly more then once. Racing is more about how to balance the car, then anything else. Took a long time to learn how to do that back in those days.

Glad that your polishing came out perfect. As you said, the secret is plenty of elbow grease, but easy on the pressure.

these days I'm Mr. Basecoat, a true convert.

As for the Humbrol Enamels, as long as you give them enough time to dry and cure, you're fine.

Joel