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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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Circumcised Sherman
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 01:48 PM UTC
That prototype picture was in an old book on the M4's if I remember right. I was on the hunt for it when Robin posted it! Peter pretty much summed up why a low rider M4 was never built. Too bad, but all those excuses didn't stop them from making the M10's and M10A1's. But then again, McNair would do anything for his pet TD service.

As a guess, the hull looks like it was cut down to about the same level as the M10 hull. The IDF probably didn't go forward because of the costs involved, and was there really any advantage to a lower hull that offset those costs.

All the same, it's too bad they didn't go with it.
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 01:34 PM UTC
[quote]
Have you tried posting over on IDF Modelling.com? Someone there might know something. IIRC both Tom Gannon and Robert Manasherob are contributors. It's members only and hard to join if you're not already a member.
[quote]

Joining is easy, but can take time. There is a thread about how to join that anyone can access from the main page. I followed the instructions and got in after a few weeks. To stay active you need to post there, I do about every three or four months at least.
jasegreene
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 12:26 PM UTC
Leave it to the Israeli Defence Force to take a M4 Sherman and turn it into a Lowrider.Sorry,I don't have no jokes because I have that song "Lowrider" by War now.
panorama
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 09:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Those are Chilean Army Leos on target practice. They operated both the M50 and the M51.




Ahhh. Now it all makes sense.
Thanx a lot for the info. Much appreciated.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 08:58 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

#33 leaves me flabbergasted. Any information where these pics have been taken? A german Leopard with desert camoflague and a burning M51. Target practice? From the ID I get no idea to which country the Leo belongs to. Wikipedia does not list any Levante-state as operators of the Leo.
Although a bit of topic - anone with a clue?



Those are Chilean Army Leos on target practice. They operated both the M50 and the M51.

panorama
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 08:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A discussion (in Hebrew but with plenty of photos) about different IDF Sherman versions. Haven't seen any indication of 'Type J' yet... https://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=383387



#33 leaves me flabbergasted. Any information where these pics have been taken? A german Leopard with desert camoflague and a burning M51. Target practice? From the ID I get no idea to which country the Leo belongs to. Wikipedia does not list any Levante-state as operators of the Leo.
Although a bit of topic - anone with a clue?
(the hebrew caption under the pics reads only: Pics that will not be repeated...)
SabIngaMartin
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 08:02 AM UTC
The full story regarding this and other interesting IDF Shermans will be in the next parts of Lioness and Lions of the Line books by SabIngaMartin publications made by me Dr. Robert Manasherob
panorama
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 07:46 AM UTC
referring to Robins jokes
panorama
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2018 - 07:45 AM UTC
very funny indeed!
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 02:06 PM UTC
I do mention it in my Trackpad book on the Sherman-based SP artillery. It is sitting next to the development vehicle for the TOMAT M50 series. Also, it is mentioned on page 161 of Israeli Shermans, Second Edition. Sadly, I did not have these photos at the time, plus there are a couple other shots I wish I had the rights to when this was originally written some years ago. I do trust the original source book which was translated for me by an IDF veteran.

Always something new about Shermans!! :-)

Tom
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 - 04:46 AM UTC
A discussion (in Hebrew but with plenty of photos) about different IDF Sherman versions. Haven't seen any indication of 'Type J' yet... https://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=383387
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 - 04:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

He surmises that it was built during the period of overlapping M50 and M51 production. They ran in parallel for about 5 years, 1960-65



According to the text under the link a single vehicle was converted in 1958.


Quoted Text

Where did you find these pictures? Are there any more?



Under the link at the beginning. I was looking for more info in Hebrew, unfortunately nothing came up.


Quoted Text

Have you tried posting over on IDF Modelling.com? It's members only and hard to join if you're not already a member.



Becoming a Mossad agent seems like a breeze compared to getting access to that website...


Quoted Text

I double-checked Tom Gannon's IDF Shermans book again and couldn't see it mentioned.



In the text there's a reference to the book 'In their hands the iron was forged' by Col. Moshe Givati. The book is about the story of the IDF repair facility I was referring to earlier. According to this book, the tank was referred as 'Degem Yod' (Type J). Major Yitzhak Jakobson, a former commander of that repair facility wrote in his memoirs that the tank was named after his initials.

Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 - 03:27 AM UTC
This is an M4A4 chassis, so it wouldn't have been a US prototype. In any case, no prototype of a low-profile M4 was ever built in the US as it was already seen that the disadvantages outweighed any advantage. It appears to be based on an M50. But might have been inspired by the US concept.

I think it is perhaps what we would now call a concept demonstrator rather than a true prototype. If taken forward I imagine it would have been applied to the M51. Ammunition capacity would have been reduced but, unlike the vanilla M4, it wouldn't have carried as much HE and only 1 type of AP. But with a more effective gun and ammunition combination, less ammunition might be expended for the same result. The French guns both had a much higher 1st round hit to kill probability than the US 75 or 76mm and IDF gunnery was renowned for its accuracy at range.

I sent the pictures over the Atlantic to a knowledgeable Shermaholic in the US who isn't on this forum. He's never seen or even heard of this tank: a complete surprise. He surmises that it was built during the period of overlapping M50 and M51 production. They ran in parallel for about 5 years, 1960-65, with the last M50's going straight into reserve. So one wouldn't have been missed.

While it may seem odd to keep building M50's alongside M51s, it was perhaps a question of turrets: the T23 type turret was needed for the M51 whereas M50s could be (and were) built on 75 and 105mm turrets. The CN-75 gun was still a significant upgrade on the 76mm M1.

Where did you find these pictures? Are there any more? Top views would be good, and clearer views of the transition from the engine deck to the hull top. If you have a clearer image, can you tell how the engine deck transitions and whether the hatches are large, small or a new design? They look egg-shaped.

Have you tried posting over on IDF Modelling.com? Someone there might know something. IIRC both Tom Gannon and Robert Manasherob are contributors. It's members only and hard to join if you're not already a member.

I double-checked Tom Gannon's IDF Shermans book again and couldn't see it mentioned. Kurt Laughlin, usually found on Missing Lynx, is a mine of Sherman information. He may know something.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 - 02:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The version of the Mohel story I heard had a barber's pole, with the "customer" breezing in and asking for "a bit of a trim"...

Still, the Rabbi gets the fees, but the Mohel keeps the tips!



:
Oh f-word, I didn't get that one until the second time I read it ....



I just had a flash back to "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" when Rabbi Tuckman is explaining what a Mohel does.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4v8BVKlAfM


-----------------------------------------------------------

Two kids are in a hospital each lying on a stretcher next to each other outside the operating room. The first kid leans over and asks, “what are you in here for?”

The second kid says, “I’m getting my tonsils out. I’m a little nervous.”

The first kid says, “You’ve got nothing to worry about. I had that done when I was four. They put you to sleep and when you wake up, they give you lots of jello and ice cream. It’s a breeze.”

The second kid then asked, “What are you in here for?”

The first kids says, “a circumcision.”

The second kid replies, “Whoa, good luck buddy. I had that done when I was born and I couldn’t walk for a year.”

-------------------------------------------------------------

A Jewish father was very troubled by the way his son turned out and went to see his rabbi about it.

“Rabbi, I brought him up in the faith, gave him a very expensive Bar Mitzvah and it cost me a fortune to educate him. Then he tells me last week, he’s decided to be a Christian. Rabbi, where did I go wrong?”

The rabbi strokes his beard and says, “Funny you should come to me. I too, brought up my son as a boy of faith, sent him to university and it cost me a fortune and then one day he comes to me and tells me he wants to be a Christian.”

“What did you do?” asked the man of the rabbi.

“I turned to God for the answer,” replied the rabbi.

“What did he say?” asked the man.

He said, “Funny you should come to me...”

------------------------------------------------------------

My favourite is this one:

A young man in his mid-twenties knocks on the door of the noted scholar Rabbi Shwartz. “My name is Sean Goldstein,” he says. “I’ve come to you because I wish to study Talmud.”

“Do you know Aramaic?” the rabbi asks.

“No,” replies the young man.

“Hebrew?” asks the Rabbi.

“No,” replies the young man again.

“Have you studied Torah?” asks the Rabbi, growing a bit irritated.

“No, Rabbi. But don’t worry. I graduated Berkeley summa cum laude in philosophy, and just finished my doctoral dissertation at Harvard on Socratic logic. So now, I would just like to round out my education with a little study of the Talmud.”

“I seriously doubt,” the rabbi says, “that you are ready to study Talmud. It is the deepest book of our people. If you wish, however, I am willing to examine you in logic, and if you pass that test I will teach you Talmud.”

The young man agrees.

Rabbi Shwartz holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

The young man stares at the rabbi. “Is that the test in logic?”

The rabbi nods.

”The one with the dirty face washes his face,“ he answers wearily.

“Wrong. The one with the clean face washes his face. Examine the simple logic.The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. So the one with the clean face washes his face.”

“Very clever,” Goldstein says. “Give me another test.”

The rabbi again holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“We have already established that. The one with the clean face washes his face.”

“Wrong. Each one washes his face. Examine the simple logic. The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. So the one with the clean face washes his face. When the one with the dirty face sees the one with the clean face wash his face, he also washes his face. So each one washes his face.”

“I didn’t think of that,” says Goldstein. It’s shocking to me that I could make an error in logic. Test me again.”

The rabbi holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“Each one washes his face.”

“Wrong. Neither one washes his face. Examine the simple logic. The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. But when the one with the clean face sees the one with the dirty face doesn’t wash his face, he also doesn’t wash his face. So neither one washes his face.”

Goldstein is desperate. “I am qualified to study Talmud. Please give me one more test.”

He groans, though, when the rabbi lifts two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“Neither one washes his face.”

“Wrong. Do you now see, Sean, why Socratic logic is an insufficient basis for studying Talmud? Tell me, how is it possible for two men to come down the same chimney, and for one to come out with a clean face and the other with a dirty face? Don’t you see? The whole question is "narishkeit", foolishness, and if you spend your whole life trying to answer foolish questions, all your answers will be foolish, too.”

May we all have the wisdom to ask, and answer, the wise questions!

A video version, this one really f-ks with your mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUYkeb92hk


WARNING: AN OLD JEWISH JOKE WRITTEN BEFORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!
These two Jewish men are sitting in a wonderful deli frequented almost exclusively by Jews in the Jewish section of town. They are talking among themselves in Yiddish. A Chinese waiter comes up and in fluent and impeccable Yiddish asks them if everything is okay, can he get them anything, and so forth. The Jewish men are dumbfounded. "Unbelievable, where did he learn such perfect Yiddish?" they both think. After they pay the bill they ask the manager of the store, an old friend also fluent in Yiddish, "Where did your waiter learn such fabulous Yiddish?" The owner looks around and leans in so no one will hear and says, "Shhhh. He thinks we're teaching him English."
Scarred
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 - 02:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The version of the Mohel story I heard had a barber's pole, with the "customer" breezing in and asking for "a bit of a trim"...

Still, the Rabbi gets the fees, but the Mohel keeps the tips!



:
Oh f-word, I didn't get that one until the second time I read it ....



I just had a flash back to "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" when Rabbi Tuckman is explaining what a Mohel does.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 11:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The version of the Mohel story I heard had a barber's pole, with the "customer" breezing in and asking for "a bit of a trim"...

Still, the Rabbi gets the fees, but the Mohel keeps the tips!



:
Oh f-word, I didn't get that one until the second time I read it ....
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 10:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Looking at the drawing of the 90mm Sherman, I wonder if the cut down IDF vehicle was actually the American prototype



I don't think so. Assuming the drawing depicts the actual prototype, the suspension is different from that on the photos. Besides, based on the info in the link, the conversion was (most likely) done in one of IDF's major repair facilities in Tel HaShomer near Tel-Aviv.
Chillidragon
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 09:15 PM UTC
The version of the Mohel story I heard had a barber's pole, with the "customer" breezing in and asking for "a bit of a trim"...

Still, the Rabbi gets the fees, but the Mohel keeps the tips!

Looking at the drawing of the 90mm Sherman, I wonder if the cut down IDF vehicle was actually the American prototype, bearing in mind how a prototype upgraded Centurion ended up in an export batch (and which the IDF are said to have had no idea what to do with).
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 11:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I found this. I don't know anything about the image, except what is written on it, whatever it may be worth ...


/ Robin




That breach looks way too small for a above medium velocity 90mm.
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 08:19 AM UTC
Once the GM6046 and Ford GAA engines began to be used it was realised in the US that a lower-profile M4 was a practical proposition. But it was turned down because - among other reasons such as the prospect of the T-23 - it would have caused far too much production disruption to make the changes across 10 assembly plants and hundreds of sub-suppliers. I'm not sure it was ever prototyped: Hunnicutt doesn't show it IIRC.

A low-hull M4 with the GAA/GAF, M26 turret and the M26-style torsion-bar suspension trialled on an M4A2 would have been a huge improvement and might have changed the landscape of post-war tanks. Diesel power was not realistic at the time as the Navy needed all the diesel they could get their hands on. Same in the UK and Germany, less so in Russia. That situation persisted into the 1960s.

I've already got about a dozen IDF M4 projects lined up. But I think I've just found another one.......
barkingdigger
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 05:35 AM UTC
Excellent find, Robin! I assume that's the Cummins diesel engine at the back? There's a gear tower at the output end to drop the prop shaft to the floor, and for want of underfloor ammo bins it looks like they crammed shells in everywhere they could regardless of brew-up risk. But by this time the Sherman's armour wasn't thick enough to keep enemy shells out anyway, so it couldn't really increase the already-high risk I guess! After all, by then the tank was just a gun-carrier given the big guns the Arab nations were using.

Looks like another potential kitbash...
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 10:17 PM UTC
I found this. I don't know anything about the image, except what is written on it, whatever it may be worth ...


/ Robin
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 09:52 PM UTC
Judging by the photos, this vehicle had to undergo major changes in the crew- and powertrain-departments.

Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 09:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Trying to reduce the Sherman's height without wanting to drop the front trans and crankshaft was never going to work.



New engine with a lower position of the outgoing axle allows a more horizontal drive shaft. The transmission looks to be low enough already.


/ Robin



True, but that would require the reversal of underfloor ammo stowage, the most effective method for stopping the burning inconvenience.

barkingdigger
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2018 - 07:44 AM UTC
Looks like they sacrificed the underfloor ammo stowage, but it certainly made for a mean-looking ride! Any hope of overhead pics?

Loved the joke BTW