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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
DAK colours?
phantom_phanatic309
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Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 - 03:03 AM UTC
Those are some interesting photos. On black and white it certainly does look like sand over grey due to the contrast. Colourizing reveals something different.
I suppose the best thing is to think about the dates the photos were taken (if indeed we can get a date.
Given me a lot to think about and like British desert vehicles, lots of interesting finish options!

I picked up the paints today and tested them on some scrap. The difference between the early and late shades is not something I expected. RAL8020 and 7027 are very pale compared to the early colours. I'm going to enjoy building and painting these old kits.

Thanks again for everyones help.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 11:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Who are you referring to when you say 'we'? I always thought of vehicles in Africa being painted to suit the terrain; I actually learned the initial wave of vehicles were standard dark gray only about eight years ago, and I am 54 now.



I am referring to everyone who use dark gray as a base colour on DAK vehicles.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 11:24 AM UTC
And finally, a question. What if they continued using this or any other method which they used for camouflage when vehicle colour switched from dark gray to RAL8000/RAL7008? How will it look on black and white photo? In tunisian campaign we clearly see tropen scheme on vehicles. But rarely in desert.
To make a point - maybe we are going for gray base instead for tropen because we see difference in contrast on black and white photos like gray/dark yellow. Instead like tropen/whatever they put on it...

BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:51 AM UTC
Now... On this site I found an interesting post.
https://alexanderandsonsrestorations.com/afrika-tan-german-helmet-north-africa/
Part of it is about sparkling send on wet paint, mostly for anti-reflective purposes. So, what if they used similar method for vehicles?


brekinapez
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:41 AM UTC
Who are you referring to when you say 'we'? I always thought of vehicles in Africa being painted to suit the terrain; I actually learned the initial wave of vehicles were standard dark gray only about eight years ago, and I am 54 now.
AgentG
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:36 AM UTC
This is what makes modeling vehicles from the North African Campaign so much fun. The variety in finishes seen is astounding and offers so much potential.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:17 AM UTC





It look like dusty gray a little.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 09:37 AM UTC
Now, what should I think when I look at this?





And now, imagine those pictures in black and white.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 09:19 AM UTC
We will not think so much about this.




But, more or less colours are visible, too.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 08:53 AM UTC
When we think about DAK vehicles, most of us think of this.



Gray base and dark yellow or sand, mud, dust or whatever on it. Contrast is clearly visible.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 08:06 AM UTC
Now, let me make my point, please don't reply until I finish... I have to upload pictures, it will take time.
BogiBg
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 08:04 AM UTC
Guys, you are absolutely right. So much so, that I even have to pool back "gray base" comment above first picture of Sd.Kfz.251 and reconsider everything I know about DAK. Men sees what he want to see...
Sd.Kfz.251 Ausf C production started in mid-1942, RAL8000/RAL7008 order was issued in March 1941. So it's more then a year... I am starting to think that it is actually Tropen Scheme. Especially when I pull picture through ALGORITMIA site. Then you get this.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 12:49 PM UTC
sPzAbt.501s Tigers were intital production and were built right after the change in regs. But common practice was use up existing stocks first. Actually some had 8020 parts ... storage bin and air filters ... being add on parts.
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 10:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


When they began painting desert camo at the factory, in the early part of the war it would be RAL 8000 with RAL 7008 covering about a third of it as the camo pattern. In March 1942 that was switched to RAL 8020 with RAL 7027 as the 1/3 color.



This post got me confused. Shouldn't it be other way around? I mean, Tiger was brand new, and it was painted RAL 8000 / RAL 7008. which means that it was official scheme at that moment?




It is confusing. Based on the timeline, Tigers should have been painted RAL 8020 with RAL 7027 camo. Instead Tigers were painted in the original tropen colors. I also believe Pz III N's from sPzAbt 501 were also RAL 8000/7008.

Note that the 8000/7008 combo was better suited for the terrain in northern Tunisia.
BogiBg
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 07:47 AM UTC
It's ok Stephen, I made more confusion my self. At least, part of your dilemma is solved.
phantom_phanatic309
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 04:51 AM UTC
Sorry BogiBg, I probably caused a bit of confusion with the wording of my question.

You and everyone have been a big help and those references photos are great. Those jerrycan racks on the 251 are certainly something I will try to add.

I might try a weathered and worn early finish on the Panzer II and a later RAL8020 & 7027 finish on the 251.

Thanks for the help

BogiBg
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 04:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


When they began painting desert camo at the factory, in the early part of the war it would be RAL 8000 with RAL 7008 covering about a third of it as the camo pattern. In March 1942 that was switched to RAL 8020 with RAL 7027 as the 1/3 color.



This post got me confused. Shouldn't it be other way around? I mean, Tiger was brand new, and it was painted RAL 8000 / RAL 7008. which means that it was official scheme at that moment?
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 02:45 AM UTC
And... based on time frame those brand new 251's could have, maybe, been painted in Dark Yellow. That's somewhat of a stretch, but plausible knowing DY was coming as a base color for all vehicles anyway.
BogiBg
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 01:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

RAL8000 & 7008




No, that's RAL 8020 with RAL 7008 added as camo. That photo was from the Tunisian campaign and those 251's were brand new.


Yes Wayne, you are right, my mistake. So it's, acctualy, three options for 251.
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 - 12:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

RAL8000 & 7008




No, that's RAL 8020 with RAL 7008 added as camo. That photo was from the Tunisian campaign and those 251's were brand new.
BogiBg
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 10:01 PM UTC
RAL8000 & 7008
BogiBg
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 09:59 PM UTC
RAL 8000

BogiBg
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 09:53 PM UTC
So...
Gray base


BogiBg
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 09:23 PM UTC
Uff... Look. You got me confused with your first post when you mentioned " sand base colours" - so I thought you want to go for vehicles with - sand base colour, which, again, will not be strictly DAK. So, if you want to go for DAK sand blasted Panzer II F and Sd.Kfz. 251 C - you can. They had them painted both ways.
phantom_phanatic309
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 12:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In that case, since Tamiya Panzer II is ausf. F and Sd.Kfz. 251 is ausf. C, you can go for factory painted Ral 8000, without gray under. Now, I can't tell you which colour to use for Ral 8000 because I use only Revell Aqua. Maybe someone can help?



Thanks. I'll keep that in mind as one thing I wanted to try was sand blasted chipped paint down to the dark grey. Maybe another time perhaps.

I've had a look and it does appear that Mig do all of those suggested colours straight out of the bottle. I'll also make a note of mixing suggestions to vary the finishes.
The colours are a lot more subtlety different to each other than I would have thought. I'm a lot more used to british dessert schemes that had far more contrasting colours. Stone and black for example.

I'll pick up some RAL8000 & 7008 at the weekend and see how it turns out. Just need to research the cammo schemes.

Thanks for the help.