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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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Merkava 3 to receive Trophy APS
knewton
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Posted: Sunday, February 25, 2018 - 11:48 AM UTC
I was reading an IDF blog where I saw that the Merkava 3 is to be updated to 3M standard with the retrofitting of Trophy APS. I’ve not seen a photo of this configuration yet, but would make for an interesting kit / conversion.... Meng maybe?

Kylie
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, February 25, 2018 - 12:38 PM UTC
Well, they already have the 3D and the 4M. Wouldn’t be difficult to put together a 3M.
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Sunday, February 25, 2018 - 10:38 PM UTC
Try cutting and pasting this Kylie

http://www.waronline.org/fora/index.php?attachments/961809_bnekfa-jpg.71005/

cheers
Marsh

This is from a contributor on Waronline, a Russian/ Israeli forum.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 12:53 AM UTC
Not one, but two unusual devices for a 3D. Nice find, Marsh!
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 01:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Not one, but two unusual devices for a 3D. Nice find, Marsh!



Yes. Trophy and a new panoramic sight. Not bad for one photo!
knewton
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 02:06 AM UTC
Thanks, Marsh; oddly that wasn’t the site I was referring too.

Is that a “droid” under the cover, in the centre of the turret?

Kylie
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 02:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Is that a “droid” under the cover, in the centre of the turret?



No, it isn’t. Take a look at #1430 in my thread. On a side note, I’ve never seen a ‘droid’ equipped Mk.3, only Mk.2s and 4s. No idea why...
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 03:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks, Marsh; oddly that wasn’t the site I was referring too.

Is that a “droid” under the cover, in the centre of the turret?

Kylie



No, its a rather unusual panoramic sight.
knewton
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 03:33 AM UTC
A rather large one at that. Is it part of Iron Vision?
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 06:10 AM UTC
I don't know, but think we are approaching OPSEC issues which we shouldn't discuss.
knewton
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 07:51 AM UTC
Yep, purely from a modelling perspective of course.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 10:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know, but think we are approaching OPSEC issues which we shouldn't discuss.



Haha, right, because somehow speculating about publicly available images is going to somehow lead to IDF combat losses when what, Hamas figures out there might be an upcoming conversion kit from Blackdog? Get real.

If the IDF was seriously worried about the OPSEC of a trophy equipped Merkava 3, I seriously doubt the person that took that picture would have walked away with their camera intact, nevermind the fact that there is hardly any secrets left about the system itself, seeing that I can go on Youtube and watch a video by Rafael explaining how the ENTIRE SYSTEM works. As for the larger sight, seeing that there are dozens of pictures of Mk3s mounting them, I really doubt theres much secrecy there. Seriously when the IDF wants to keep a weapons system classifed, they keep it classifed, (ie, that missile armed Magach they kept quiet for nearly a decade) so you probably dont need to worry about playing backseat Mossad on a model forum because some guys are wondering what a gun sight does.


MarshGelbart
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 12:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I don't know, but think we are approaching OPSEC issues which we shouldn't discuss.



Haha, right, because somehow speculating about publicly available images is going to somehow lead to IDF combat losses when what, Hamas figures out there might be an upcoming conversion kit from Blackdog? Get real.

If the IDF was seriously worried about the OPSEC of a trophy equipped Merkava 3, I seriously doubt the person that took that picture would have walked away with their camera intact, nevermind the fact that there is hardly any secrets left about the system itself, seeing that I can go on Youtube and watch a video by Rafael explaining how the ENTIRE SYSTEM works. As for the larger sight, seeing that there are dozens of pictures of Mk3s mounting them, I really doubt theres much secrecy there. Seriously when the IDF wants to keep a weapons system classifed, they keep it classifed, (ie, that missile armed Magach they kept quiet for nearly a decade) so you probably dont need to worry about playing backseat Mossad on a model forum because some guys are wondering what a gun sight does.




Dear Rob,

Thank you for the timely reminder why I seldom contribute much to sites on the internet.

Although I have been out of the loop now for many years, I have been lucky enough to have visited MANTAK, Tel ha Shomer and IDF
armour bases on several occasions. I have sat down with the designers of the Merkava and Namer, (both Tal and his successors), discussed the AFVs characteristics and watched production and development over the years. Not on the web, but in real life. I have attended weapons trials, armour exercises, mobility trials and invited to ballistic symposiums. I am relatively well informed about the Merkava project.

I have actual experience, sometimes uncomfortable times, with IDF field security and how difficult it is for them in the age of the mobile phone to control leakage of images and information. I will not contribute to that leakage and compromise OPSEC, just in case I know too much.

You on the other hand are free to speculate to your hearts content. It won't do any damage.

Yours
Marsh

glock17c
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 05:35 PM UTC
Dear Marsh,

I deeply respect your words in the second paragraph.
Thank you.

BTW, I keep the "Pere" secret since its first days in 1984, and it was kept until 2006.

All the best
Michael
Removed by original poster on 02/27/18 - 18:36:11 (GMT).
Precious_rob
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 11:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I don't know, but think we are approaching OPSEC issues which we shouldn't discuss.



Haha, right, because somehow speculating about publicly available images is going to somehow lead to IDF combat losses when what, Hamas figures out there might be an upcoming conversion kit from Blackdog? Get real.

If the IDF was seriously worried about the OPSEC of a trophy equipped Merkava 3, I seriously doubt the person that took that picture would have walked away with their camera intact, nevermind the fact that there is hardly any secrets left about the system itself, seeing that I can go on Youtube and watch a video by Rafael explaining how the ENTIRE SYSTEM works. As for the larger sight, seeing that there are dozens of pictures of Mk3s mounting them, I really doubt theres much secrecy there. Seriously when the IDF wants to keep a weapons system classifed, they keep it classifed, (ie, that missile armed Magach they kept quiet for nearly a decade) so you probably dont need to worry about playing backseat Mossad on a model forum because some guys are wondering what a gun sight does.




Dear Rob,

Thank you for the timely reminder why I seldom contribute much to sites on the internet.

Although I have been out of the loop now for many years, I have been lucky enough to have visited MANTAK, Tel ha Shomer and IDF
armour bases on several occasions. I have sat down with the designers of the Merkava and Namer, (both Tal and his successors), discussed the AFVs characteristics and watched production and development over the years. Not on the web, but in real life. I have attended weapons trials, armour exercises, mobility trials and invited to ballistic symposiums. I am relatively well informed about the Merkava project.

I have actual experience, sometimes uncomfortable times, with IDF field security and how difficult it is for them in the age of the mobile phone to control leakage of images and information. I will not contribute to that leakage and compromise OPSEC, just in case I know too much.

You on the other hand are free to speculate to your hearts content. It won't do any damage.

Yours
Marsh




Marsh, my apologies, I am truly an ass, I read the entire exchange completely out of context and responded like a boob. I honestly thought you were trying to shut down the entire conversation about the subject, and not just deflecting more detailed questions about the sights designation.
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Monday, February 26, 2018 - 11:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I don't know, but think we are approaching OPSEC issues which we shouldn't discuss.



Haha, right, because somehow speculating about publicly available images is going to somehow lead to IDF combat losses when what, Hamas figures out there might be an upcoming conversion kit from Blackdog? Get real.

If the IDF was seriously worried about the OPSEC of a trophy equipped Merkava 3, I seriously doubt the person that took that picture would have walked away with their camera intact, nevermind the fact that there is hardly any secrets left about the system itself, seeing that I can go on Youtube and watch a video by Rafael explaining how the ENTIRE SYSTEM works. As for the larger sight, seeing that there are dozens of pictures of Mk3s mounting them, I really doubt theres much secrecy there. Seriously when the IDF wants to keep a weapons system classifed, they keep it classifed, (ie, that missile armed Magach they kept quiet for nearly a decade) so you probably dont need to worry about playing backseat Mossad on a model forum because some guys are wondering what a gun sight does.




Dear Rob,

Thank you for the timely reminder why I seldom contribute much to sites on the internet.

Although I have been out of the loop now for many years, I have been lucky enough to have visited MANTAK, Tel ha Shomer and IDF
armour bases on several occasions. I have sat down with the designers of the Merkava and Namer, (both Tal and his successors), discussed the AFVs characteristics and watched production and development over the years. Not on the web, but in real life. I have attended weapons trials, armour exercises, mobility trials and invited to ballistic symposiums. I am relatively well informed about the Merkava project.

I have actual experience, sometimes uncomfortable times, with IDF field security and how difficult it is for them in the age of the mobile phone to control leakage of images and information. I will not contribute to that leakage and compromise OPSEC, just in case I know too much.

You on the other hand are free to speculate to your hearts content. It won't do any damage.

Yours
Marsh




Marsh, my apologies, I am truly an ass, I read the entire exchange completely out of context and responded like a boob. I honestly thought you were trying to shut down the entire conversation about the subject, and not just deflecting more detailed questions about the sights designation.



Hi Rob, no problem. I try not to speculate about stuff that could be OPSEC, as I do know a little about the Merkava and am very cautious about giving things away by mistake.

In turn, I would like to apologise if I appeared a bit pompous and stuffy. I am in my 60s and was having a painful joint day.

cheers
Marsh
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 07:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I try not to speculate about stuff that could be OPSEC



People like to throw that term around, but many times I have to wonder if they really know what they are talking about or are just using some buzzword they heard. Images of technical developments taken in the past have nothing to do with current or future operations - the "OP" part. A discussion of current troop movements, reports of reservists being activated, orders stating that leaves are cancelled starting tomorrow, those things could compromise operational security. The fact that a tanks were seen with a new armor outfit three months ago is an issue of compromised technology.

More to the point, ol' Dr. Mansheroob once chastized people for "fishing" around for information about the IDF. I noted that the survival problem for the fish was not that there were fishermen but that there were fish that were willing to bite.

KL
MarshGelbart
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 09:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I try not to speculate about stuff that could be OPSEC



People like to throw that term around, but many times I have to wonder if they really know what they are talking about or are just using some buzzword they heard. Images of technical developments taken in the past have nothing to do with current or future operations - the "OP" part. A discussion of current troop movements, reports of reservists being activated, orders stating that leaves are cancelled starting tomorrow, those things could compromise operational security. The fact that a tanks were seen with a new armor outfit three months ago is an issue of compromised technology.

More to the point, ol' Dr. Mansheroob once chastized people for "fishing" around for information about the IDF. I noted that the survival problem for the fish was not that there were fishermen but that there were fish that were willing to bite.

KL



I don't wish to get involved in semantics. The term OPSEC is indeed sloppy, however, its meaning and intent is understood. The Hebrew term translates as "Field Security" which covers both technical and tactical matters and is better suited to explain the situation

I wasn't using OPSEC as a buzzword. What might be semantics to us has a very different context to Michael Mass and Dr Manasherob. On a personal level I prefer to take their concerns to heart. You need to make your own choice.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 10:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't wish to get involved in semantics. The term OPSEC is indeed sloppy, however, its meaning and intent is understood.



When people are sloppy with terms like this it usually means they haven't been trained in their meaning and use, which usually means that they don't have any need to be trained about security. In other words, they are talking out their ass. The worst are those who like to brag that "I know but I can't tell you!" Either they are lying or they've just revealed themselves to be a security risk.


Quoted Text

I wasn't using OPSEC as a buzzword. What might be semantics to us has a very different context to Michael Mass and Dr Manasherob. On a personal level I prefer to take their concerns to heart. You need to make your own choice.



I have made that choice. I have no hesitation about asking questions, especially about the military of a foreign country. If the holders of information are concerned about its release the problem isn't those who ask but those who answer. "Don't bite the hook", to reference my previous analogy, and don't brag about what you know.

KL