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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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Old Topic - Merkava 3D Anti Skid
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 07:54 AM UTC
Hi All,

I know this subject has been beaten to death, and I myself have a bunch of different types of methods (and materials) to use on an upcoming Meng 3D Early Merkava, but wondering if if there are any newer, up to the minute products that anyone may swear by, for modern IDF vehicles, in particular. I now many folks think that Rustoleum Terracotta spray is THE way to go, but I'm more inclined to do a bit rougher texture (I haven't been able to spry the Rustoleum in a smooth, consistent way, plus for IDF, I think the texture is too fine and regular, anyway). I bought some scale model railroad ballast years ago in 3 different size particles, and I'm really considering using the finest grade. However, I'm still pondering the best way to secure the stuff to the model. I'm considering Future (or the current equivalent). Any other thoughts? Either on the method entirely, or the way to best secure various materials like, Future, Mr. Surfacer, paint, or other methods? I have some old Mig Pigment Fixer, but considering AK Interactive Sand and Gravel Fixer (which may be the same stuff as the Pigment Fixer, thoughts on that?) Like I wrote, I have a bunch of different materials, and I'm not happy with ANY of them.
TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 08:13 AM UTC
You want the texture to be flat ,parallel to the surface. If you mix texture with paint it will get a clumpy effect on the model. Maybe mask the area, brush on some future and sprinkle some texture on it while still wet. Brush off excess when dry. paint over it with a color coat. Practice/experiment first.
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 08:49 AM UTC
Thanks, Greg. I sounds like my post may have implied that I have, or intend to, mix the texture with the binding substance. That is not the case. What I want to do is lay down a 'sticky' layer, over which I will sprinkle the texture (whatever I decide upon), then shake off the material that does not stick. After writing the original post, I did a bit of experimenting. I tried using Aleen's Tacky craft glue, and sprinkled fine textured railroad model ballast, then tried Chinchilla dust. I did the same test using Mr. Surfacer 1000. The Mr. Surfacer test yielded the best results. The fine railroad ballast still seems too rough for 1/35 scale. especially when looking at the real thing in my Desert Eagle Siman 3D book, which shows anti skid being far more uniform with smaller stones/gravel than I recalled previously. I'm thinking this may be the way to go (Mr. Surfacer and Chinchilla Dust). I haven't tried using Future, either, and I probably should, since I"m familiar with that stuff. Not sure what to seal it with, though, before an actual paint coat. Not even sure the Mr. Surfacer and Chinchilla Dust is THE way to go, and I'm STILL open to suggestions, based on the latest and greatest products.

If at all possible, I'd like to avoid masking, and just paint on the sticky stuff as close as possible to where I want it to go. I'm not a masking kind of guy! So maybe that will affect and possible new recommendations you may have. Thanks a ton in advance!
Tankrider
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 02:20 PM UTC
Curt,
I have had good results with Future and Embossing Powder that I picked up at a Joann's Crafts store. The colors were kinda funky: purple, bright green, red, etc but the grain is a uniform size. I painted on the future, sprinkled on the powder and let it dry and used an old paintbrush to sweep off the excess. you can create a factory fresh look or an older, worn, patchy finish. I sealed up the finish with a coat of primer. Google "embossing powder" for sources.

HTH

John
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 07:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The fine railroad ballast still seems too rough for 1/35 scale. especially when looking at the real thing in my Desert Eagle Siman 3D book, which shows anti skid being far more uniform with smaller stones/gravel than I recalled previously.



Although the metal grains applied on various IDF vehicles seem to be more coarse than what the US uses, most homemade efforts seem to me out of scale. I would say the finer the better.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 07:17 PM UTC
You might want to check out VMS(Vantage Model Solutions). They run ads along the margins of Armorama. They have a product that is suppose to replicate non skid surfaces and I think it comes in a number of different grades.

I have gotten good results using baking soda. Working in small sections I apply a coat of Tamiya clear and while still wet/tacky sprinkle on the baking soda. Any excess can be blown off. Large chunks can also be easily scraped off/removed with the tip of an xacto knife. If you don't like the result simply spray on Windex to remove and start again. Once you are satisfied seal it completely by airbrushing with several coats of clear gloss. You can then paint and weather as per your SOP.
jwest21
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 08:11 PM UTC
I did this with the Rustoleum method. Note there are 2 types of texture paint available from them- fine and regular. The regular has a very coarse texture which looks like a match for IDF no-slip.

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=262738&page=1
AgentG
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 09:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Curt,
I have had good results with Future and Embossing Powder that I picked up at a Joann's Crafts store. The colors were kinda funky: purple, bright green, red, etc but the grain is a uniform size. I painted on the future, sprinkled on the powder and let it dry and used an old paintbrush to sweep off the excess. you can create a factory fresh look or an older, worn, patchy finish. I sealed up the finish with a coat of primer. Google "embossing powder" for sources.

HTH

John



^^THIS^^
Curt I went to Hobby Lobby in Henderson and found all the Embossing Powder I would ever need in the "Scrap Book" section.

G
Recon
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Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 10:15 PM UTC
The embossing powder i get is white. I get it from hobby lobby.

Mike
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 01:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Curt,
I have had good results with Future and Embossing Powder that I picked up at a Joann's Crafts store. The colors were kinda funky: purple, bright green, red, etc but the grain is a uniform size. I painted on the future, sprinkled on the powder and let it dry and used an old paintbrush to sweep off the excess. you can create a factory fresh look or an older, worn, patchy finish. I sealed up the finish with a coat of primer. Google "embossing powder" for sources.

HTH

John



^^THIS^^
Curt I went to Hobby Lobby in Henderson and found all the Embossing Powder I would ever need in the "Scrap Book" section.

G



Thanks guys! Does embossing powder come in different sizes? The Chinchilla Dust I have is extremely fine grained and absolutely uniform, as is the metal powder I have (I’m not at home, but I think the metal stuff is embossing powder of some kind). Ideally, I’m thinking that using the Chinchilla Dust combined with ground up fine railroad ballast (to make the particles a bit smaller than they are), to get some very random larger pieces, might look good. I woul need a mortar and pestle for the grinding, though. I appreciate the replies, guys!!
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 06:13 AM UTC
Well, it seems like I may have finally figured out how to do this anti skid thing. I tried, last night, to use undiluted Mr. Surfacer 1000, on raw plastic, followed by a pile of Chinchilla Dust. Let it sit in place for ~30 seconds to sort of 'set up', then tap off. Leaves a very complete area of uniform 'roughness' save for some very minute variations of 'levels' that might be attributable to slight differences in how the fluid is absorbed by the dust.

I also tried what had been bugging me all day, just itching to get home and try. I decided that the 'raw' fine railroad ballast was still too big to work. So, I took several heavy teaspoons full of the ballast and put it into a Chinet bowl, and with the back of a spoon, tried to break down the pieces into smaller 'chunks'. A crude mortar and pestle, which in my mind would be the ideal tools to use. But I was able to get the pieces just barely small enough to look irregular, and if mixed with the Chinchilla Dust, and held on with the Mr. Surfacer, would be great for irregular, larger anti skid gravel. I think, for my Merkava 3D, though, I'll probably stick with the Mr. Surfacer and pure Chinchilla Dust. I've tried all the various 'store bought' solutions for anti skid (as i mentioned in my first post), and none are as good as this version, in my humble opinion. I haven't tried them ALL, however, so there may one or more out there I haven't yet tried, that are perfect and even easier to use, but I haven't found it yet.

John, I tried Future this evening, to give your advice a shot. I have to say that for me, Future, as a glue for anti skid, just didn't work for me. It didn't hold nearly enough for uniform coverage. Maybe something to do with the ultra dry air here in Nevada, but the Mr. Surfacer blew the Future away, I'm afraid. At least tonight!

Now, the only unknown left is how to seal the anti skid onto the tank. I'm guessing that misting on very light coats of something. Not sure what the something should be, yet. If could be AK Acrylic Matte, or perhaps a satin varnish of some kind. All I'm fairly sure of is, that whatever product I use, I don't want to use high pressure in my airbrush (don't want to take any chance of disturbing the anti skid) and a mist from far away might take away a hint of moisture from the spry, which I would not want to do on a smooth surface, but for the rough texture of the anti skid, this may be ideal. We will see wha it looks like in a few days when I have the time to mess with it.
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I did this with the Rustoleum method. Note there are 2 types of texture paint available from them- fine and regular. The regular has a very coarse texture which looks like a match for IDF no-slip.

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=262738&page=1



Jason, I have to say I really like the work you did on your Merkava I. I'm getting a Takom Merkava I myself soon, it's on order. Unfortunately, my experience with Rustoleum out of a rattle can can best be described as 'awful', terrible', and other similar descriptors. I don't know why those spray cans and I don't seem to mix well (no pun intended), but I've tried on several occasions, and despite arduous shaking and careful attempts at application, I've never had any good luck with any of the various types of Rustoleum. I wish I could say otherwise.
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 06:39 AM UTC
Try Tamiya primer in the can. The texture might not be as rough after primer and color coat.
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 06:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Try Tamiya primer in the can. The texture might not be as rough after primer and color coat.



Greg, I assume you mean use the primer as the final sealer coat, after putting the anti skid in place? I gather you are suggesting that if I get the anti skid 'roughness' amount to be perfect before final finishing (sealer, paint, etc.) that it might not end up being as good as I thought it might be?
Precious_rob
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 08:01 AM UTC
If no one else has mentioned it previously, you might wanna look into a newer product called "Hull-Tex" https://www.vms-supplies.com/vms-hull-tex

Ive used it on an Academy Magach so far and it looks pretty good, rough but uniform
jwest21
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 08:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I did this with the Rustoleum method. Note there are 2 types of texture paint available from them- fine and regular. The regular has a very coarse texture which looks like a match for IDF no-slip.

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=262738&page=1



Jason, I have to say I really like the work you did on your Merkava I. I'm getting a Takom Merkava I myself soon, it's on order. Unfortunately, my experience with Rustoleum out of a rattle can can best be described as 'awful', terrible', and other similar descriptors. I don't know why those spray cans and I don't seem to mix well (no pun intended), but I've tried on several occasions, and despite arduous shaking and careful attempts at application, I've never had any good luck with any of the various types of Rustoleum. I wish I could say otherwise.



The trick I used is hold the can a couple feet away and make quick passes. I build it up over 2 or 3 passes. It's too easy to get too much on at once.
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 05:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The trick I used is hold the can a couple feet away and make quick passes. I build it up over 2 or 3 passes. It's too easy to get too much on at once.



Ahhhh, that is different than how I tried to do it. I’ll give that method a try. Thanks!
jwest21
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 07:10 PM UTC
Even wait a minute or two between passes so it can dry a little. Keep checking it before each pass.
cabasner
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 09:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If no one else has mentioned it previously, you might wanna look into a newer product called "Hull-Tex" https://www.vms-supplies.com/vms-hull-tex

Ive used it on an Academy Magach so far and it looks pretty good, rough but uniform



Based on your post, I’ve ordered the ‘regular’ and ‘uneven’ textured versions of this product. VMS has videos to demonstrate the product which look really good. I’m not sure that they are going to be ‘better’ than the Mr. Surfacer and Dust combo, if perhaps a little ‘cleaner’ and more ‘integrated’ overall. I’ll be happy to provide comments on my experiences when I get them. if anyone is interested.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 12:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

If no one else has mentioned it previously, you might wanna look into a newer product called "Hull-Tex" https://www.vms-supplies.com/vms-hull-tex

Ive used it on an Academy Magach so far and it looks pretty good, rough but uniform



Based on your post, I’ve ordered the ‘regular’ and ‘uneven’ textured versions of this product. VMS has videos to demonstrate the product which look really good. I’m not sure that they are going to be ‘better’ than the Mr. Surfacer and Dust combo, if perhaps a little ‘cleaner’ and more ‘integrated’ overall. I’ll be happy to provide comments on my experiences when I get them. if anyone is interested.



Interested? Of course we're interested! The marketing bla-bla is one thing, a report from another model builder is another
/ Robin
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 01:56 AM UTC
Merk IV, but you get the idea...



RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 02:08 AM UTC
Seems like an uneven, within limits, coverage is the desired result
/ Robin
cabasner
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Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 07:42 AM UTC
My experience with Chinchilla Dust or Aluminum Oxide Abrasive (both of which appear almost identical when attached with Mr. Surfacer, just that the Oxide is metal versus whatever the Chichilla Dust is made of ...) look VERY much like the images supplied by Israel. It may be awhile until I get my VMS Hull Tex, but I will most certainly post my experiences. And, I will also post my Mr. Surfacer plus Dust/Oxide, probably over this upcoming weekend. I actually have the Desert Eagle Merkava Siman 3D book, and the anti slip on a Mk. 3D looks identical to that on the Mk. 4, meaning, to my eyes, very uniform. The 'scattered' (as VMS calls there non-uniform version of texture, what I referred to as 'uneven') is applied differently than the VMS regular texture, in that for the scattered, you mix the texture with the adhesive, and for the regular, you apply the adhesive to the plastic, then sprinkle the texture on top of the wet adhesive. In my opinion, the VMS scattered looks like the True Earth antiskid, which I have but haven't liked much.
cabasner
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 01:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Interested? Of course we're interested! The marketing bla-bla is one thing, a report from another model builder is another
/ Robin



I just got the new VMS texture sets, the 'regular' and 'scattered' versions. I'll be trying these out soon, maybe this weekend. I'll post results here when I have something to report. Hoping these work, so my search for the optimum version of this effect will be over...
JSSVIII
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Interested? Of course we're interested! The marketing bla-bla is one thing, a report from another model builder is another
/ Robin



I just got the new VMS texture sets, the 'regular' and 'scattered' versions. I'll be trying these out soon, maybe this weekend. I'll post results here when I have something to report. Hoping these work, so my search for the optimum version of this effect will be over...



Keeping my fingers crossed Curt, I'm very interested in how they work out.