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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Enamel wash vs Oil wash
acctingman1969
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Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 01:27 AM UTC
Can someone explain to me, please, what's the difference here? Does one give you results that the other does not? Is one used over the other and why?

I'm new to the hobby and I'm confused and realizing that my limited pocketbook might not be able to handle this hobby
Vicious
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Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 01:43 AM UTC
The difference is minimal, the Enamel dries faster and with a more matt effect, but the colors themselves are very similar, for the same reason you can mix oils with Enamel without any problems, they use the same thinners,oils are more satin,for the same reason the first Humbrol enamel was called oils,the oils have a different binders(lin seed oil)
acctingman1969
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Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 01:47 AM UTC
Thank you!

I'll stick with learning on the oils I bought @ Michael's.
urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 12:51 AM UTC
Actually the opposite , Vicious .
" Enamels " are coating that are hard and glossy .

Almost always oil base ( for paints ) , almost always alkyd resins ( not linseed - too soft )

" enamel " is kinda like " beer "
Doesn't tell you ale or lager .
You'll sometimes see acrylic " enamels " , which are just gloss acrylic .
So - it's more a marketing term ,, and often misapplied
Vicious
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 04:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually the opposite , Vicious .
" Enamels " are coating that are hard and glossy .

Almost always oil base ( for paints ) , almost always alkyd resins ( not linseed - too soft )

" enamel " is kinda like " beer "
Doesn't tell you ale or lager .
You'll sometimes see acrylic " enamels " , which are just gloss acrylic .
So - it's more a marketing term ,, and often misapplied




i know but We are in a modeling forum right? So here we talk about Modeling paint "Enamel" (my favourite) like Humbrol, Testor, Agama, Revell etc ... and in this case our "Enamel" paint is what I wrote in the previous message.

If it was a forum of vintage advertising collectors or otherwise, it would be a different thing...but is not...
urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 04:58 AM UTC
What I posted applies here -- but whatever
Vicious
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 09:08 AM UTC
Especially because acctingman1969 is a newbie if you start making the chemist you just create confusion, stay on our hobby letting it lose what it means or what are the enamels out of the modeling world , generally in static model we have 5 types of paints

the so called "Enamel" ,thinn with solvent like turps, white spirit etc...Like Humbrol, Agama, Tamiya, Revell, Testor, and most of the shades are Matt,they are really strog paints

Artist Oils ,the binders are lin seed oil, poppy or other natural oils, same thinners as Enamel and can be mixed together (at least with humbrol and revell)

Acrylics water based, thinn or with their specific thinner or water, windex etc ... Vallejo, Ak, Ammo, Lifecolors, Humbrol .........

Acrylic solvent based, usually thinn with their specific thinner, Gunze, Tamiya, others brand ?? ...

Laquer, thin with laquer thinner, Alcad II and? ...

Urumomo you write "Enamels are coating that are hard and Glossy" ,you have ever used Enamel hobby paints? ...i use them from the early '80,yes In their range you find as well Gloss as metallic or satin, but saying "Enamel = Glossy" is totally wrong, then if you want to talk about enamel out of modeling it's all another thing
urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 09:33 AM UTC
Well , then to keep it simple :
The one difference between enamel and oils is artist oils use linseed ( chiefly ) as the binder and enamels use alkyd .
No ?
Both of those binding oils cure thru oxygen absorption -- alkyds cure much harder and faster . - as you said . -- although cure time is moderated by the addition of metallic dryers .

I posted what I posted since you will see acrylics labeled as enamels ,,, which is confusing
Also lacquer base will be labeled enamel sometimes also

You stated that enamels dry with a more matt appearance , and that isn't always the case unless they have flattening agents added .
Acrylics labeled " enamels " are always going to be gloss
...then you have nail polish enamel ( lacquer )

If it says " enamel " it will be gloss unless it tells you " matt ", " satin " etc ( thank gawd for labels :-) )
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 12:09 PM UTC
Enamels can come in both flats and gloss. I used them exclusively for decades, since the early 70's. Gloss mainly for aircraft and autos and flats (matte) for military. Enamels use solvents to carry the pigment that will evaporate. Oils use linseed oil or other types of oils that don't evaporate easily but are designed to be absorbed by the canvas or paper or other type of porous surfaces that oils were designed for, plastic isn't porous. You don't need to use oils. Those are a fad that cropped up in the 80's. I use only black, brown and burnt umber, but I am practicing the oil spot technique. All other washes are thinned enamels or acrylics. Since linseed oil won't be absorbed by plastic I will put a dollop smaller than a pea on a piece of plain unfinished cardboard. I let it sit for a while to let the cardboard absorb as much of the linseed oil as possible. Then I will thin it with the same brand thinner as the oil paint if they have one, because I know that it will mix properly with out any issues. Same for my enamels. I've had hot thinners that ate thru the gloss sealer, I use mainly Testors Glosscote, I used to seal the paint before weathering and into the plastic. It's more expensive but not by much and I know I won't have compatibility issues.

Before using washes, seal your matte paint with a glossy finish such as Testors Glosscote. This will allow your washes to flow properly. Since you are starting out I'd stay away from oils at first and practice with either enamel or acrylics for your washes. Oils are more expensive and less user friendly. You can use your acrylics for washes just like enamels. Washes are just thinned paint after all.
gaz_ewart
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 01:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The difference is minimal, the Enamel dries faster and with a more matt effect, but the colors themselves are very similar, for the same reason you can mix oils with Enamel without any problems, they use the same thinners,oils are more satin,for the same reason the first Humbrol enamel was called oils,the oils have a different binders(lin seed oil)



Bruce, I'd listen to vicious. His is the most simple and easily understood and relevant reply to your question.

The tip usually bounded about with oils is to put them on cardboard first as this soaks out some of the excess oils.

If you mix enamel paint correctly there should be no shine to them unless you've specifically bought 'satin' or 'gloss' versions of the colour.

It might be worth picking up this magazine:
http://www.migjimenez.com/en/the-weathering-magazine-publications/849-the-weathering-magazine-issue-17-washes-filters-and-oils-english.html

As for the mention of acrylic enamels, I'm pushing 30. Been around models my entire life and I have never come across that phrase ever.
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 05:00 PM UTC
The only time I've seen the term "acrylic enamel" used was in auto painting.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 05:19 PM UTC
I find hobby enamels(which, from what I gather are "true" enamels) easier to work, with than applying dots of oil. I have recently ventured, into oils and am less than impressed. However, I have seen the excellent results achieved with oils. To each his own, I suppose.
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 07:20 PM UTC
I started using them on aircraft. They showed panel lines better than enamels and made jet engines really stand out. I don't know if it was due to the higher grade pigments but they looked better on smaller scale, like 1/72, than enamel washes.
TimReynaga
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 07:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Can someone explain to me, please, what's the difference here? Does one give you results that the other does not? Is one used over the other and why?




Bruce, in a simplistic answer to your question, I've used both common hobby enamels like Testors/Model Master, Humbrol, Pactra, Floquil, etc., and artists oils like Grumbacher, Windsor & Newton, etc. (the oil paints sold in art stores that typically come in tubes) for washes. Both can work, but over the years I’ve settled on hobby acrylics (I like Tamiya) for the base colors sealed with Future:
 photo M31 TRV green paint details 2in1_zpsh2dj5qsg.jpg
followed by an artist’s oil wash (I use Raw Umber on almost all my armor projects) thinned with ordinary paint thinner, and a final matt coat to kill the shine.
 photo M31 TRV completed1_zpsarrk3psk.jpg photo M31 TRV completed on road_zpsonwpvjof.jpg
The artists oil paints are more expensive, but the tubes last for years and I find that the results are subtler and more predictably consistent than with hobby enamel washes.
Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The only time I've seen the term "acrylic enamel" used was in auto painting.




In our hobby, the word "acrylic enamel" is not used, at least not in Europe and Australia, I've heard it both in car painting and in "art and craft".
urumomo
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 03:15 AM UTC
I was quite obviously talking about the TERM " enamel "
I included nail polish ,, doubt many people use nail polish on their plastic models - but you could if you wanted to .
BTW , linseed oil based artists oils don't require a porous substrate .
The whole gloss coating a plastic model to use oils on it contradicts that assumption .
The chief difference is the resins between oil base " enamels " and artists oils .
They both cure through the same process and use the same thinners .
11Bravo_C2
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 08:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I included nail polish ,, doubt many people use nail polish on their plastic models - but you could if you wanted to .



Actually many model car builders do. Nail polish comes in a variety of colors not available in the model paint world.
urumomo
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 08:16 AM UTC
Yeah ,, people using acrylic enamels too .
Strange world , huh ?
11Bravo_C2
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Strange world , huh ?



I agree. It is a strange world.
urumomo
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 08:44 AM UTC
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