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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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Takom Tiran-4 Decals?
Shalta
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 06:47 AM UTC
So, I'm looking into this kit as a possible purchase 'soon'... But, I noticed it only has SLA decals?
Is it actually possible to build / paint it up as an IDF Tiran-4, or is it really limited to an SLA vehicle without changes?
Also, any suggestions for 'decals' if it is fine for an IDF Tiran? Not really sure if I can just paint them on, lol...
Thanks for any help, in advance!

PS: Since it seems semi-relevant and not worth it's own post... Does anyone how to cleanly paint the number plates on Meng's Merkavas? I just painted mine last month and had to leave the plates off as I couldnt make it look good.
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 01:39 AM UTC
It only has SLA decals because it is a variant unique to SLA, having the full late external upgrade but still retaining the 100m D-10T gun and not having the 105mm M68. I don't know if the internal systems were fully upgraded, or whether this has any external differences.

This configuration was not used by IDF. Whether simply substituting the 105mm gun would make an IDF variant I'm not qualified to say: there may be other differences. Tiran 4's that had the full upgrade for IDF (4Sh?) got the 105mm gun. Early ones were used with fewer modifications and still with the 100mm gun. Some IDF Tiran 4's got the 105mm gun without having the full external upgrade of bins etc.

I have read elsewhere that Takom chose their Chinese Type 59 kit as the basis for their Tiran 4. If correct, there will be other differences and therefore inaccuracies for a Tiran. The Type 59 rear was certainly different, and I believe the wheels may have been slightly different. Being a T-54 the Tiran 4 would not ordinarily have the reinforced first roadwheel hubs, but they could conceivably have been added later: they pop up in places they shouldn't be.

MiniArt are promising an early Tiran 4 without all the external mods and still with the 100mm gun. Their T-54s have been very well received and reviewed, so it ought to be good. The box art tantalisingly shows a late 105mm configuration in the background: a hint of things to come.
Shalta
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 02:12 AM UTC
Fair enough, About what I expected to hear TBH, as I did notice the gun issue... Everything else I'm blank on. Seems odd that they made a Tiran kit without anyway to make it an IDF tank though.
The Miniart kit does look much better, I'd be lying if I said it wasnt my backup plan, lol... Though, the one I saw was advertised as a late type (had all the bins), but still used the 100mm. So that's still an issue, but still, For that one it seems more like all it needs is the 105mm.
Thanks!
Precious_rob
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 05:44 AM UTC
The Takom kit does include the 105mm L7 as option in the kit. Though no specific IDF decals

As for the inaccuracies on the rear hull, As far as I know, and from the limited research i did, it fits the bill.
Shalta
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 06:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Takom kit does include the 105mm L7 as option in the kit. Though no specific IDF decals

As for the inaccuracies on the rear hull, As far as I know, and from the limited research i did, it fits the bill.


Really? The only review I saw didnt mention it... Strange, as I went back and looked at that review as soon as I saw your post and I noticed it on sprue N.
Do you know if it has the rear hull bin? I cant tell for certain in that review, but if it does, I just might try it.
Though, The lack of IDF decals is extra odd now... Seems like a pointless omission.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 06:34 AM UTC
Yeah, I have the kit in my stash already, it has the rear bin included. I found the IDF decals an odd omission too considering they have all the options included to make it that version. But I have a feeling that they may design the kit and then farm out the markings and paint options out to Ammo of Mig, and Ammo obviously has that SLA Tiran book out, so they probably kept the options all SLA to try and push the book.
Shalta
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 06:56 AM UTC
Now that I think about it, I seem to recall seeing something like 'painting guide and markings by Ammo' on either their AMX-13 or T-14, So that does seem pretty plausible.
Still weird, but thanks! Atleast it seems like a fine alternative minus decals.
I think I'm waiting to see how Miniart's kit goes at this point, but I'm certainly going to look into some Tiran decals (... There's got to be a set), Just incase.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:03 AM UTC
Def Models I believe makes a few generic IDF markings set if that helps
Shalta
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:46 AM UTC
Alright, thanks. I'll take a look just after I post this.
Had my eye on a Verlinden decal set, looks... Wrong, though. Reversed colors and etc.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 09:09 AM UTC
Does anyone have a picture showing the painting schemes and the decal sheet?
Shalta
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Does anyone have a picture showing the painting schemes and the decal sheet?


Dont have anything showing the paint schemes, but This review shows the decal sheet at the bottom of the page.
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 05:03 AM UTC
I had another look at the published MiniArt box art, and I was wrong in my post above. It shows exactly the same configuration as Takom with the full final external mods but still with the D-10 gun, but incorrectly depict it in IDF markings. Unclear if the 105 barrel is included.

One wonders if they were based on any of the various memorial and junk Tirans that still exist in Lebanon.

I was also wrong about the different variant in the background on the box art. Problems of increasing age and decreasing memory..... The one in the background just has the can racks on the turret rear and carries the early D-10 gun without evacuator. A very early Tiran. Still shows starfish wheels, although the Miniart T-54B kit includes both starfish and spider as I recall. I intend to do just such an early T4 but with spider wheels.

A type 59 will have the fan bulge for a start, which T-54 did not have.
Shalta
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 05:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I had another look at the published MiniArt box art, and I was wrong in my post above. It shows exactly the same configuration as Takom with the full final external mods but still with the D-10 gun, but incorrectly depict it in IDF markings. Unclear if the 105 barrel is included.

One wonders if they were based on any of the various memorial and junk Tirans that still exist in Lebanon.

I was also wrong about the different variant in the background on the box art. Problems of increasing age and decreasing memory..... The one in the background just has the can racks on the turret rear and carries the early D-10 gun without evacuator. A very early Tiran. Still shows starfish wheels, although the Miniart T-54B kit includes both starfish and spider as I recall. I intend to do just such an early T4 but with spider wheels.

A type 59 will have the fan bulge for a start, which T-54 did not have.


For what it's worth, I found this a day or two ago, a Tiran-4 from Latrun that Miniart copied to the wire, Possibly Takom too (Takom's doesnt have the... 'Thing' above the splashguard though).
Looks to be the same type, as far as I see. D-10S, all the bins, etc.

Your guess is as good as mine as to whether that's how it served in the IDF or not.
Still need to look into specifics on that, but life has been in the way.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 06:06 AM UTC
The thing above the splash guard is a tie down rack for field stretchers. As for the gun issue, as I recall, with the Tiran 4, a few did retain the D10 gun throughout their career with the IDF, unlike the Tiran 5 which if memory serves all got the L7 gun upgrade.
Shalta
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 06:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The thing above the splash guard is a tie down rack for field stretchers. As for the gun issue, as I recall, with the Tiran 4, a few did retain the D10 gun throughout their career with the IDF, unlike the Tiran 5 which if memory serves all got the L7 gun upgrade.


Ok, Thanks. Didnt know that. Does the Takom kit have that stretcher rack? It (and IDF decals) seem like the only things 'missing' in it.
If it does actually have it, It seems like a solid choice tbh.

Didnt have any luck finding those DEF decals though. Found a generic sheet, but its missing the 'number' decals. Still kinda lost there.
Though, Presumably soon, I'm bound to get a few spares that'd work.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 06:47 AM UTC
No the Takom kit is missing that detail. Though going with their SLA marking scheme in the kit, it's not surprising, the Lebenese models usually didn't have it
Shalta
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 07:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No the Takom kit is missing that detail. Though going with their SLA marking scheme in the kit, it's not surprising, the Lebenese models usually didn't have it


Ah, fair enough. Thanks again, lol.
Guess that's another + to waiting for the Miniart kit tbh... That, and the price is liable to be 'very' close for me.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 10:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Does anyone have a picture showing the painting schemes and the decal sheet?


Dont have anything showing the paint schemes, but This review shows the decal sheet at the bottom of the page.



Well, the tactical markings (chevrons and barrels) indicate that there's an IDF version included (AFAIK SLA did not use those). Whether that's historically correct or not is another story, but with so many sub-variants I guess there was a few (or at least one) tank equipped with all late external improvements, while retaining the the old D-10 gun. By the way, apparently one of the options resembles a "Tiran 4 of the South Lebanese Army, Negev Desert, early 80ís". That's probably a mistake, as the SLA did not have any tanks in Southern Israel (or in Israel proper for that matter). My uneducated guess would be that the above mention sub-version did serve in the IDF, although in (very?) limited numbers.
Shalta
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 11:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Does anyone have a picture showing the painting schemes and the decal sheet?


Dont have anything showing the paint schemes, but This review shows the decal sheet at the bottom of the page.



Well, the tactical markings (chevrons and barrels) indicate that there's an IDF version included (AFAIK SLA did not use those). Whether that's historically correct or not is another story, but with so many sub-variants I guess there was a few (or at least one) tank equipped with all late external improvements, while retaining the the old D-10 gun. By the way, apparently one of the options resembles a "Tiran 4 of the South Lebanese Army, Negev Desert, early 80ís". That's probably a mistake, as the SLA did not have any tanks in Southern Israel (or in Israel proper for that matter). My uneducated guess would be that the above mention sub-version did serve in the IDF, although in (very?) limited numbers.


Fair enough, I'm actually unable to see any decals on the sheet past the numbers and 'AB'. Not sure why, contrast maybe?
And Ok, Good to know. Shame the review doesnt show the paint guide, it might clear that up a bit more.
Thanks, I literally didnt see that though, lol.
m4sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 03:10 AM UTC
The picture is a good view of the Tiran front hull. There are 2 L shaped brackets added by the IDF to hold a stretcher. They look flat in most views as they are blocked by the water deflector. These brackets start showing up on early Tirans still armed with the 100mm gun. The brackets are on the Lebanese Tirans, being an IDF fitting.

Note the lack of the U shaped metal strap. Someone posted that strap was added by the museum staff to hold the stretcher in place because visitors were messing with it.

Both Takom and Miniart Tiran 4's are post 1973 versions, and based on the Tirans that served in Lebanon with the SLA. It has been stated that some of the 100mm armed Tirans saw service with the IDF after 1973, but all the ones that I have found that can be identified as IDF, post 1973, had the 105mm gun installed. I am no expert, and as some that are said it happened, I accept it happened.

Pre 1973 there were 100mm Tiran 4's used by the IDF during the years leading up to the 1973 war. These tanks have some of the fittings seen on the museum tanks but lack the turret bins and have a rear hull bin that is rounded, not square. The DEF Tiran 4 set is a pre 1973 version. Combat pictures of the Tiran 4's show they were armed with the 105's, but some accounts say that T-54's were used to bluff the Egyptians during the counter-attacks so might be 100mm armed.

The modifications to the Tiran 4's and 5's after 1973 were apparently designed to break up the profile of the turret due to friendly fire incidents.

I am waiting for the Miniart Tiran as I think it will be the best base for a tank that served in the 1973 war, back dated to that configuration. OOTB both can build up to a very nice SLA or rare post 1973 Tiran 4, and I am glad to see them.

Shalta
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 05:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The picture is a good view of the Tiran front hull. There are 2 L shaped brackets added by the IDF to hold a stretcher. They look flat in most views as they are blocked by the water deflector. These brackets start showing up on early Tirans still armed with the 100mm gun. The brackets are on the Lebanese Tirans, being an IDF fitting.

Note the lack of the U shaped metal strap. Someone posted that strap was added by the museum staff to hold the stretcher in place because visitors were messing with it.

Both Takom and Miniart Tiran 4's are post 1973 versions, and based on the Tirans that served in Lebanon with the SLA. It has been stated that some of the 100mm armed Tirans saw service with the IDF after 1973, but all the ones that I have found that can be identified as IDF, post 1973, had the 105mm gun installed. I am no expert, and as some that are said it happened, I accept it happened.

Pre 1973 there were 100mm Tiran 4's used by the IDF during the years leading up to the 1973 war. These tanks have some of the fittings seen on the museum tanks but lack the turret bins and have a rear hull bin that is rounded, not square. The DEF Tiran 4 set is a pre 1973 version. Combat pictures of the Tiran 4's show they were armed with the 105's, but some accounts say that T-54's were used to bluff the Egyptians during the counter-attacks so might be 100mm armed.

The modifications to the Tiran 4's and 5's after 1973 were apparently designed to break up the profile of the turret due to friendly fire incidents.

I am waiting for the Miniart Tiran as I think it will be the best base for a tank that served in the 1973 war, back dated to that configuration. OOTB both can build up to a very nice SLA or rare post 1973 Tiran 4, and I am glad to see them.



Ok, thanks for the very nicely detailed answer, Pretty much solves the question to be honest!
I've got one question though; The metal strap that was added by the museum is the piece connected to the top of the splashguard, correct? Just making 100% sure what part it is as it seems present on Miniart's kit.
Simple to leave off if so, but still, got to make sure!
m4sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 08:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Ok, thanks for the very nicely detailed answer, Pretty much solves the question to be honest!
I've got one question though; The metal strap that was added by the museum is the piece connected to the top of the splashguard, correct? Just making 100% sure what part it is as it seems present on Miniart's kit.
Simple to leave off if so, but still, got to make sure!



This is a good picture that shows the Tiran 4 with the U shaped bent metal strap. I do not have the Takom model so I do not know what the kit part looks like. It is possible Takom has the strap is attached to the water deflection plate, but on the real tank it is welded to the hull:



The strap is in the center, and the 2 brackets that hold the stretcher are on each side. Part of the canvas straps are still attached to the brackets. From the pictures I have the stretcher brackets do not touch the water deflector.

A walk around of the Latrun Tiran 4 believed to be the one Miniart used as reference can be found here:

http://svsm.org/gallery/T-54-family

The walk around has very good detail pictures of this version of the Tiran 4, and the details on the Miniarm model should match this tank. So far all I have seen are CAD images of the Miniart model.
Shalta
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 08:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Ok, thanks for the very nicely detailed answer, Pretty much solves the question to be honest!
I've got one question though; The metal strap that was added by the museum is the piece connected to the top of the splashguard, correct? Just making 100% sure what part it is as it seems present on Miniart's kit.
Simple to leave off if so, but still, got to make sure!



This is a good picture that shows the Tiran 4 with the U shaped bent metal strap. I do not have the Takom model so I do not know what the kit part looks like. It is possible Takom has the strap is attached to the water deflection plate, but on the real tank it is welded to the hull:



The strap is in the center, and the 2 brackets that hold the stretcher are on each side. Part of the canvas straps are still attached to the brackets. From the pictures I have the stretcher brackets do not touch the water deflector.

A walk around of the Latrun Tiran 4 believed to be the one Miniart used as reference can be found here:

http://svsm.org/gallery/T-54-family

The walk around has very good detail pictures of this version of the Tiran 4, and the details on the Miniarm model should match this tank. So far all I have seen are CAD images of the Miniart model.


Ok, thanks again!
I was referring to it being shown on Miniart's boxart, IIRC (I dont have the Takom kit myself*)... Though, I admit it looked like it was connected to the splashguard to me, Seems like I wasnt looking close enough though!
I'll take a look at that walkaround, Should be helpful for the basics.
m4sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 08:48 AM UTC
I had to go through the walk arounds to be sure myself. There are some side views that show the stretcher brackets. It seems Miniart isn't rushing their kit out, which is ok with me, I'm in over my head with a T-72 at the moment.