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Campaigns: Active Campaigns
Campaigns that are either in planning or underway should be grouped here.
Hosted by John Pereira
Crusader to Gazala Campaign
AgentG
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Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 07:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Lets just say the caption here is correct and the Ausf L was running around at the earlier time during Op Crusader:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C8649?search



Definitely an L. One sure way to distinguish a J from an L is the J and early L have viewports on the forward turret sides. This was deleted from the remainder of the L production. M's and N's lacked the viewports as well.

G
Chaman911
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 07:41 PM UTC
The picture states the photo was taken August 1942. The campaign states that the Battle of Gazalla ended in June. Are we sure my ausf. L is ok for the campaign? I don't want to "barge" my way into your campaign
I read the article you linked about ausf. J panzers being redesignated as L and it states, 'early ausf L was identical to the J." The J has some differences from the L I have a kit for so I would not enter the campaign based on the early L "loop hole" you graciously proposed.
JackG
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: May 28, 2006
KitMaker: 171 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 11:18 PM UTC
I've gone ahead and signed myself up for this one. Interested in both Axis and Allies, and given that my calender is full, won't be making a subject choice till next year.

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About the Panzer IIIL, studying what the members have provided in the way of links, I'd say it's a go as long as it includes the crew escape hatches on the hull sides. Headlights too along with the Notek. Smoke launchers are optional, but if included should be the rack type and not located on the turret.

Only other bit of info I can add is strength numbers of the Panzer III Special as of May 25th, 1942:
15 - Panzer Reg. 5
3 - Panzer Reg. 8

-------------------------

The suggested link http://gregpanzerblitz.com/Crusader.htm is pretty good, a lot of info provided in a pleasant 'game chit' format.

For the Italians, I think there could be some more allocations of their tankettes (L3) found. At the beginning of Crusader, there was still about 187 of these light tanks in service.

Ariete had a second (Light) Tank Regiment, containing three battalions:
https://i2.wp.com/www.wargamedesignstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Blog-22-4.jpg



TotemWolf
#288
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Joined: February 11, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 12:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text


----------------------

About the Panzer IIIL, studying what the members have provided in the way of links, I'd say it's a go as long as it includes the crew escape hatches on the hull sides. Headlights too along with the Notek. Smoke launchers are optional, but if included should be the rack type and not located on the turret.
-------------------------

The suggested link http://gregpanzerblitz.com/Crusader.htm is pretty good, a lot of info provided in a pleasant 'game chit' format.

For the Italians, I think there could be some more allocations of their tankettes (L3) found. At the beginning of Crusader, there was still about 187 of these light tanks in service.

Ariete had a second (Light) Tank Regiment, containing three battalions:
https://i2.wp.com/www.wargamedesignstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Blog-22-4.jpg






That would make it a J/L not a straight factory L. In the strictest terms an L wouldn't be in Africa until the Tunisia action. But isn't this about having fun? I would say it's close enough.
Chaman911
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 12:29 AM UTC
Just checked the kit. It's got headlights, escape doors, and a Notek. Looks like I'm good to go. Thanks guys. looking forward to this!


JackG
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:10 AM UTC
Bryan, that's right on, and look forward to seeing that one on the bench.

---------------

Robert, can you define what you mean by a straight factory L?

Might be making things difficult for yourself by trying to draw a line of when the J gave way to the L. They shared details of changes as they were both being produced at the same time for about a five month period.

You had also stated earlier that IIIL production did not begin until June 1942, but Jentz research has it has Dec. 1941:

http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/6405/Pz-Kpfw-III-Ausf-L




TotemWolf
#288
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 02:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Robert, can you define what you mean by a straight factory L?

Might be making things difficult for yourself by trying to draw a line of when the J gave way to the L. They shared details of changes as they were both being produced at the same time for about a five month period.

You had also stated earlier that IIIL production did not begin until June 1942, but Jentz research has it has Dec. 1941:

http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/6405/Pz-Kpfw-III-Ausf-L







You are correct about the overlap in production. In fact the J/L's were L's that made from the start of a J.
Panzer III Ausf.L TP production vehicle, beginning in early 1942, was a transition model equipped with the Ausf.J turret and the standard long barrel 5 cm KwK 38 L60.
Sometime around March or April a prototype was fitted with the KwK 39 with a modified muzzle and muzzle break, but it was never produced. At that same time they try to fit a PZ IV turret on to the III. That didn't work either.
In late May the turret with 57mm of armor was mated with the 5cm KwK39 L/60, sans muzzle break. The new production run also began installing a torsion-bar counter-balance instead of a coil spring for the main gun, and altering the air-instake louvres and hatches on the rear deck.
As well the hull escape hatches on the hull side, the loader’s vision port on the gun mantlet and the turret side ports were deleted. A system designed to transfer heated engine coolant from one vehicle to another was also introduced.
All these changes created the Ausf.L production model.
The order placed in May for 1100 units was reduced in June to either 1000 or 900, depending on the source. I'm inclided to think it was the former. Of these the first 600 were sent to the Eastern Front.
450 of them were mounted with the 7.5cm KwK L/24. Also 447 Ausf L were used to mount the short 7.5cm gun and thus became Ausf N. One was completed even with an experimental, tapered-bore KwK0725.
The projection L's saw service with the 1st SS-Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 2nd SS-Division Das Reich and 3rd SS-Division Totenkopf, and the Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland.

petbat
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 11:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The picture states the photo was taken August 1942. The campaign states that the Battle of Gazalla ended in June. Are we sure my ausf. L is ok for the campaign?




Hey Bryan - Captured in August but must have been running around months before that surely? Or was being held in reserve just in case? Or maybe Rommel's Brothr in law was a crew member and he promised to keep him safe and had the 3 on guard duty waaaaayyyyyy behind the lines for 6 months, ahem, or pick whatever other excuse you want to dream up.... just join in, build it and have fun, its all okay with us.
ClaytonFromEllijay
#454
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 06:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The picture states the photo was taken August 1942. The campaign states that the Battle of Gazalla ended in June. Are we sure my ausf. L is ok for the campaign?




Hey Bryan - Captured in August but must have been running around months before that surely? Or was being held in reserve just in case? Or maybe Rommel's Brothr in law was a crew member and he promised to keep him safe and had the 3 on guard duty waaaaayyyyyy behind the lines for 6 months, ahem, or pick whatever other excuse you want to dream up.... just join in, build it and have fun, its all okay with us.



Agreed!
Chaman911
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 06:43 PM UTC
Alright in in! Just enlisted. Looking forward to the build and to watching all of you progress through yours.
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 - 04:19 AM UTC
Excellent! I believe we're gonna see a lot of great builds this campaign. That Pz III photo is inspiring me to great efforts at dustiness. I'm building a Pz IIIg.

Gaz
petbat
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Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 - 05:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Excellent! I believe we're gonna see a lot of great builds this campaign. That Pz III photo is inspiring me to great efforts at dustiness. I'm building a Pz IIIg.

Gaz



Then try these on for size for dust, dust and more dust
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C4980?search
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31715?search
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31708?search

oh, okay and a bit of ash if you want to be picky

They forgot to scrape off the moulding seams on the road wheels on this one
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31712?search
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 - 07:00 AM UTC
Peter,
Thanks for those great links! I've got the Orange Box Dragon kit and it has figures as a bonus.

So, mine won't be burnt out. I'm thinking about going with a very dusty Panzer painted in the early gray and sand scheme in a splinter pattern I've seen in profiles in various places.
tatbaqui
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ARMORAMA
#040
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Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 - 12:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Excellent! I believe we're gonna see a lot of great builds this campaign. That Pz III photo is inspiring me to great efforts at dustiness. I'm building a Pz IIIg.

Gaz



Then try these on for size for dust, dust and more dust
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C4980?search
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31715?search
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31708?search

oh, okay and a bit of ash if you want to be picky

They forgot to scrape off the moulding seams on the road wheels on this one
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C31712?search



Here's another pic also with seams on



Come to think of it I may go for the old Tamiya Pz II kit for this campaign...

Northwing
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: March 17, 2017
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Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 - 10:59 PM UTC
Hiya, quick question - is a 6pounder armed Crusader tank going to be too late for this campaign?
JackG
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 12:49 AM UTC
Actually the 6pdr Crusader(Mk.III), would be too early for this time frame. I've notice literature (web and book) stating they began delivering in May'42, but for first combat use, that would be the second battle of El Alamein, October 1942.

----------

Fairly lengthy post here on the OOB of both sides at Gazala:
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=104408
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 02:17 AM UTC
There were unfortunately no Crusader III's at either end of the Campaign that I can find. I've looked about for documentation, but couldn't find any supporting their combat usage. Apparently during the time of our campaign, they were being adapted for desert usage according to one source.

We may have to start considering a El Alamein to Tunisia campaign following this one.

Gaz
petbat
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 05:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


We may have to start considering a El Alamein to Tunisia campaign following this one.

Gaz



Groan... oh no, another group build I would just have to be part of... that Bronco Bishop is calling me..
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 05:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


We may have to start considering a El Alamein to Tunisia campaign following this one.

Gaz



Groan... oh no, another group build I would just have to be part of... that Bronco Bishop is calling me..



Peter,
Just think of it in terms of 'stash-reduction'. The best thing about reducing your stash is that it makes room to buy another kit.

Gaz
69mudbone
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 07:00 AM UTC
Gary, I missed that on my taxes this year, ..oh.. you said stash reduction not stash deduction, maybe someday.........
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 12:12 PM UTC
Hah! If we could only get tax rebates for models purchased!
SteveAndrews
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: August 16, 2010
KitMaker: 537 posts
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Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 - 07:48 PM UTC
Hi guys

I know we have a few months to wait before the action starts but the weather where I live is scorching so my thoughts turned to North Africa. A few moments rummaging in my stash produced this little lot. That's actually about one-third of my entire stash.

The question now is which one(s) to choose, and what to do? I have a vague thought about the Matilda or Valentine stopped near an overturned Zundapp with some guys looking over the bike. Or maybe the bike is booty acquired by the 25 pounder field gun crew. What do you think?

I'm wishing for cooler days before I start modelling a hot war.

Lakota
#123
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 12:35 AM UTC
Howdy Y'all
@Steve-nice collection, I built the Matilda which is a very sweet kit. My only tip would be to watch out and check your references-I don't think the fuel tank was used in the field. I used to have a book with a picture of a Zundapp that had a couple of Afrika Korp gray-green stripes on the Desert Yellow, very cool.
@Gaz-the more I do my research the more I realize there are a lot of models out there for a El Alamein, Operation Torch and Tunisia campaigns if you were so inclined. I was going to do a conversion of the 1/48 Tamiya Panzer Mk. III Ausf. J with a 50mm L60 but cannot find any documentation. I have a CMK resin conversion to backdate the Ausf. L to a Ausf J. Maybe I'll save it for a later campaign.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
petbat
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 01:23 AM UTC
Steve go the Matilda. The Rota-trailer was not ordered for production until May 1942 and did not hit the desert until after Op Crusader, so save the Valentine for the next build, which seems to be gaining as much interest as this one!

I'd love to see the sidecar unit towed by the camel and a trade deal being negotiated by Monty ...!!!
SteveAndrews
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 04:48 PM UTC
Hi Guys

Don, thanks for the steer on the Matilda. I have some references that show early Matildas with a rear rack for fuel cans rather than the big tube shaped tank. I think that's what you mean? If you ever find the Zundapp reference it would be great to see it too. I'm going to go hunting on the internet to see what I find.

Peter, your idea really made me smile. You know I might just try something like it. Thanks also for the info on the Valentine. It is back in the stash.

So, that's probably decided it for me. I'm going to try some version of the Matilda parked up next to the bike while it is being salvaged/sold.

Now there's a heap of time to do research and try not to start.

Oh one more question. I have an SdKfz 232 early type in the stash - the one without the big armoured plate on the front. Does anyone know if it would also be eligible? I dont think I'll use it but it would be good to know just in case.

Happy modelling.

Steve