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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Panther D,A & G cooling fan direction
mudcake
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Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 10:08 PM UTC
Just been reading Volume 2 of The Research Squads book on the Panther A restoration and it shows a drawing with text.
Looks like the fans blow up/out, sucking air in through the adjustable baffles under the rectanglar grills either side of the fan. Heated coolant circulates from the rear radiators to the front radiators.
Littorio
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Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 12:23 PM UTC
If you look at the interaction of the men's clothes when they stand over the fans in this video you can see that the fans are both blowing up.

mudcake
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Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 10:40 AM UTC
Why not ask someone from the Wheatcroft Collection, they're fully restoring three Panthers.
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:47 AM UTC
I'm not convinced there ever was a Panther tank ....


Pffftt -- IDK .

The fan would already be blowing UP if it's drawing hot air and smoke from the brakes and evidently sucking air into the twin pipes on the left to cool the exhaust .
So we're back to why the direction was reversed .

Still don't understand why that side needs the cooling jacket .

Is there a crew heater in the A ?
These two books make zero mention of it .



That was the point I made to Robin - - I'm of the opinion that if you had equipment or operating parameters that required you to design , fabricate and install all that plumbing ,, I think it should get a sentence or five of explanation .
They're gone in the G , heater or not -&- they're not on that A I posted in your thread ...

BTW -- I have a hard time believing they would draw air down across the exhaust manifold of 6 cylinders of a gas engine and pump it into the fighting compartment .
Real groovy way to chill out the crew --- permanently ,, with CO poisoning
Plus -- the drawing would show it .
The air just goes to the underside of the fan and out

Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Right -
After further research -

A : the drawing showing the cooling airflow is wrong , it is pushed through and out just as it is described in the text .

B : Apparently , The A was fitted with a fighting compartment heater by stealing some heated air from one or both radiators on the left , with the fan blowing DOWN .( so the hot air is coming from the rectangular-grated volume (s ) )
Evidently , the ducting for this heated air interfered with the normal cooling air flow on that side of the engine where it had to squeeze past - within an already super-sealed , over-cramped and overheating environment -- so they shrouded that sides exhaust piping and took some of the supply air from that fan and pumped it around and out the back with the exhaust .
...........

The fans always blew DOWN except at some point early , with the D for sure , when one fan at least was reversed to blow up to suck flammable vapors out of the engine compartment .
Then they fixed their fuel leaks and returned to the nominal both fans blowing DOWN for the A and the G - until the G was fitted with the heater tower ( or "lump " as Robin calls it ) and then that side had it's fan reversed to blow UP .
.. . and the ducting from the new tower didn't interfere with the manifold cooling on that side OR they did something in addition . ???


So -
Does anyone have any info on the A's crew heater ?



If the crew compartment heater in A drew air that has already passed through the radiator, I don't see how that could reduce efficiency of engine cooling. My understanding is the heater in A drew air directly from cooling jacket around the manifold. That was the reason for uneven cooling of the affected manifold and the need for more cooling air flow to that manifold.

Regarding reversing fan flow to suck out gasoline fumes. Wouldn't keeping the fan flow in the same down ward direction, but blowing some air into the engine compartment to force vapor out do the same trick? If the engine compartment is truly otherwise then hermetically sealed neither sucking from it nor nor blowing into it would do anything. But is there is some opening, then either blowing into it or sucking from it would help remove the vapor.
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 12:54 AM UTC
.. so the drawing jives with that description if the brake heat extraction - and evidently smoke too - conduit connects directly to the fan housing .

That removes my " push " for fan direction .
kinda important

Did the A have a heater ?
When and why were the pipes installed and removed ?


Merry Christmas

urumomo
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:09 PM UTC
.... might as well beat this horse some more

I'm waiting on more reference material ,
But
In my Spielberger/Jentz/Doyle Jagdpanzer book ,

in reference to the Jagdpanther :



.... so May of '44 - May of 1944 - we have them . no mention of a crew heater in this book until the winter of '44 with the tower style of the G .

The other text(s) say the cooling systyem compartments are sealed to be flooded for fording
How does dust and smoke arrive ? the brakes flood too ?
No
What does this tell us about fan direction ?

That criminal drawing needs to be locked away


and this :



" new "" introduced " in winter '44
new from nothing or new compared to what was there prior ?

that description of it's operation is a bit off ,
Translation errors

It is It isn't It was It's not
We needed them we put them we deleted them they're gone

So Confusing !!

urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 03:19 AM UTC
Right -
After further research -

A : the drawing showing the cooling airflow is wrong , it is pushed through and out just as it is described in the text .

B : Apparently , The A was fitted with a fighting compartment heater by stealing some heated air from one or both radiators on the left , with the fan blowing DOWN .( so the hot air is coming from the rectangular-grated volume (s ) )
Evidently , the ducting for this heated air interfered with the normal cooling air flow on that side of the engine where it had to squeeze past - within an already super-sealed , over-cramped and overheating environment -- so they shrouded that sides exhaust piping and took some of the supply air from that fan and pumped it around and out the back with the exhaust .

The introduction of the cooling tower for the G with necessary reversal of the fan to blow UP and I ASSUME the change in ducting / piping made the forced air cooling of that side's manifold unnecessary .

Question Mark

The engine compartment and the fan/radiator compartments are water-tight , fully separated bays - so that's the only way a crew heater using discharge air from the radiators could have an impact on the temperature of the exhaust manifold . ducting .

The fans always blew DOWN except at some point early , with the D for sure , when one fan at least was reversed to blow up to suck flammable vapors out of the engine compartment .
Then they fixed their fuel leaks and returned to the nominal both fans blowing DOWN for the A and the G - until the G was fitted with the heater tower ( or "lump " as Robin calls it ) and then that side had it's fan reversed to blow UP .
.. . and the ducting from the new tower didn't interfere with the manifold cooling on that side OR they did something in addition . ???


So -
Does anyone have any info on the A's crew heater ?
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 09:23 PM UTC
Yeah !
That's what I was asking -- right after Robin's first Panther pic.

Like I said in the OP , I understand why there is a lot of confusion about this .
Reading that train-wreck thread over @ Missing-Lynx the other night is what got me back to attempting to sort it out

BTW , Robin , I PM'd you my email
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 09:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Did you read anything that I wrote ?





Well, why would only one manifold need cooling by active circulation?



The other engines seems to have had cooling on both sides so the question is why did the one version have cooling on only one side? Maybe something to do with where the fuel lines are?
Both exhausts get hot. Check
Fuel on hot exhaust pipe = bad idea. Check
Do we need to fix both exhausts? Maybe not absolutely necessary ... Hey guys! Lets do a quickfix for the most urgent problem.

Just guessing, ... but there was a war going on and the Panthers were wanted at the front in a reasonably working condition.

/ Robin
Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 09:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Did you read anything that I wrote ?





Well, why would only one manifold need cooling by active circulation?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

.. So it's like an ASTM # or the like ?
The 30 or 45 don't represent a quantity like the 210 and 230 do for displacement ?

I'll take you up on the translation offer !




Same engine (bore & stroke et.c), only some of the bolted on stuff was different ...

PM me for e-mail adress.
/ Robin
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:54 PM UTC
.. So it's like an ASTM # or the like ?
The 30 or 45 don't represent a quantity like the 210 and 230 do for displacement ?

I'll take you up on the translation offer !

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That's just an engine manual , Robin

I'm having a hard enough time with the German on all the included drawings in Spielberger's book -- I don't want a full German-text book

... but that reminds me , I asked in the forum in the past - What does the 30 in the P 30 represent ?



You could e-mail me scans and I'll translate

P30 vs P45:
"Die HL 230 Variante P45, wie sie aus dem Tiger bekannt ist, unterscheidet sich durch andere Nebenaggregate vom P30 und es war möglich, einen P30 zum P45 oder einen P45 zu einem P30 umzubauen. Charakteristisch für den P45 sind die runden Wirbelöl-Luftfilter."

Different auxiliary equipment. Swapping stuff would turn a P30 into a P45 and vice versa. P45 had circular (or round) air-filters

P45


P30





Images located on this German page:
http://www.fahrzeuge-der-wehrmacht.de/Artikel/Motoren.html
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:27 PM UTC
That's just an engine manual , Robin

I'm having a hard enough time with the German on all the included drawings in Spielberger's book -- I don't want a full German-text book

... but that reminds me , I asked in the forum in the past - What does the 30 in the P 30 represent ?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:14 PM UTC
Maybe this could be of interest
http://www.motorbooks.at/lkw/militaria/panzerkampfwagen-panther-werkstatthandbuch-zum-maybach-motor-hl-230-p-30-und-hl-210-p-30

But maybe it doesn't say anything about the rest of the installations .......

/ Robin

Maybe this image from Twitter (someone restoring an engine) could give some information??


https://twitter.com/sturmi1975/status/592422811232292866
But maybe it's the wrong engine ? Seems to have exhaust cooling jackets on both sides ....

urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:54 PM UTC
Did you read anything that I wrote ?


Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Chuk4 - that's not a crew heater .
There ain't no venturi on the Panther (except the pitot tubes used for the air-speed gauges - - -and some venturi flow in the carburetors )




The rabbit ear intakes on either side of left hand exhaust? My understanding is those are intakes for a counter flow heat exchanger that utilizes the exhaust to heat the incoming air which are used to warm the fghting compartment.



NO
the applicable text is in the OP



If the OP text is correct and the rabbit ear pipes are for cooling exhaust manifold, why does only one manifold need cooling? It's a V-12 and should have separate exhaust manifold for each cylinder bank. The diagram show the flow covers only one manifold.
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Chuk4 - that's not a crew heater .
There ain't no venturi on the Panther (except the pitot tubes used for the air-speed gauges - - -and some venturi flow in the carburetors )




The rabbit ear intakes on either side of left hand exhaust? My understanding is those are intakes for a counter flow heat exchanger that utilizes the exhaust to heat the incoming air which are used to warm the fghting compartment.



NO
the applicable text is in the OP
Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The loader's hatch is still on the right ...
and the hull penetrations are the same . Not mirrored



They probably screwed up during the restoration. Or it was done as an in-joke.

I like the oil stain under the engine. It shows the thing can run.
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:37 PM UTC
The loader's hatch is still on the right ...
and the hull penetrations are the same . Not mirrored
Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Chuk4 - that's not a crew heater .
There ain't no venturi on the Panther (except the pitot tubes used for the air-speed gauges - - -and some venturi flow in the carburetors )




The rabbit ear intakes on either side of left hand exhaust? My understanding is those are intakes for a counter flow heat exchanger that utilizes the exhaust to heat the incoming air which are used to warm the fghting compartment.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:35 PM UTC
Hummmmmm

Surviving Panzer V Panther Tank at the German Tank Museum.
Why has it got the cooled exhaust on the right side ?




Has one of the images above been mirrored or not ?
Look closely at the small openings/covers.
Somehow someone has moved the cooled exhaust pipe from one side to the other.

From WW II In color:


/ Robin
BenGibby
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:27 PM UTC
The fans blow upwards according to this-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH2IYgTJc-E
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 06:11 PM UTC
Chuk4 - that's not a crew heater .
There ain't no venturi on the Panther (except the pitot tubes used for the air-speed gauges - - -and some venturi flow in the carburetors )

Nicholas ,
I have taken into account translation issues -- I'm thinking a lot of the book's issues are a result of the translation and re-formatting ,
But this line of questions isn't dependent on that .