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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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M47 Patton turret.
historianmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 04:35 AM UTC
What are the the sheet metal pieces on the side of some M47's?

I heard they were for protecting against the rain.

If so, all the pictures I've gone through show some with some without. Were they on a particular version or removed later on.

Did the US Army leave them on or were they removed.

Did other countries do the same.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 05:27 AM UTC
I believe that they are covers to stop dust and other organic matter of the suspension.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 05:32 AM UTC
They are rain gutters to keep water out of the turret race. Apparently they were added during Italian overhaul. They are not a US item.

KL
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 05:33 AM UTC
Most M47's had those things removed, you can still see them on the sides of some, but unless you want to be modelling a very specific tank you I wouldn't worry about them. It varied wildly, but most of the time the US and Germans kept them off, while I believe the Iranians kept them on. It was to direct water off the turret.
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 08:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Most M47's had those things removed, you can still see them on the sides of some, but unless you want to be modelling a very specific tank you I wouldn't worry about them. It varied wildly, but most of the time the US and Germans kept them off, while I believe the Iranians kept them on. It was to direct water off the turret.



Plenty of photos showing the 'gutters', but for the sake of saving time in modeling these gutters, I'll repost a couple of photos of what I've done in an application of the gutters to my 1990 era Somolia M47 (the gutters were originally modified/added by the Italians), and by the time the 2nd photo comes along, you'll notice I've added foundry markings/numbers under the gutter.





historianmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 09:08 AM UTC
Does the same apply to the difference between grab handles on the sides of the turret too? What about the grad handles on the sponson tool boxes?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 03:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Most M47's had those things removed, you can still see them on the sides of some, but unless you want to be modelling a very specific tank you I wouldn't worry about them. It varied wildly, but most of the time the US and Germans kept them off, while I believe the Iranians kept them on.



To be clear, US tanks and those of allied nations who received the tanks directly from the US never had the gutters installed. They were installed by the Italians and during overhaul at Italian factories before the tanks were re-distributed within NATO or to other countries.

KL
barkingdigger
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 04:22 PM UTC
These gutters and the short pairs of hand rails appear on German M47s too - but it is something that "grows" over time with successive maintenance cycles and periodic overhauls. The Italeri kit if built straight from the box has the standard long US rails and no drip gutters. It also lacks the canvas mantlet cover seen in most pictures.

IIRC, didn't the Italians get theirs from German stocks? If so, it is the Germans rather than the Italians that started the trend! I know some of the Italian ex-German tanks came "home" to the US as museum objects and range targets once the Italians outgrew them...
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 05:52 PM UTC
Hello Kody,

As mentioned, these are rain gutters.

Several years ago site member Gianfranco Pelliciari, 37-year veteran of the Italian Army and Italian tank commander, built the Italeri kit and super-detailed it. The second post from the bottom identifies the gutters: M47 "Patton" tank of the Italian Army
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 09:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Does the same apply to the difference between grab handles on the sides of the turret too? What about the grad handles on the sponson tool boxes?



The Somolia M47's had multiple combinations. Seems no two vehicles were ever alike within their tank corps. Same goes for other countries operating the M47...different configurations depending on where/how/from whom, the vehicle was purchased.

Some of those mods are as follows: you will have the option of applying gutters or not, what type of handrail to use or add and whether to use .032, or .020, stainless steel wire for the individual handles, depending on the country. Then there is the choosing of any one of 3 muzzle brakes, switching from a 90mm gun to a 105mm gun, applications of either T80 or T84 tracks, having rear tensioners missing or present (behind that last road wheel), having a manlet cover or not, adding different locations and types of foundry markings/serial numbers (to the front hull, upper hull, turret sides and top, rear comm box), and so on. Even some headlight configurations were locally modified. Grab handles on the tool boxes...well, I've used stiff stainless steel .020 wire or stayed with the kit handles. Any PE handles are woefully inaccurate. Either way, no one will fault you for staying within limits of the kit or using wire. On top of all that: adding Mr. Surfacer correctly located all over the turret and hull to rough up the cast look the kit does not give the modeler.


I did not restrict myself to book/form/function of the 4 (soon to be 5) M47's I'm modeling since diversity with the vehicle is so prolific. In addition to the Somolia M47, I'll be cranking out one from Portugal, Jordan, an M47E2 from Spain, and a country yet to be determined. There are tons of photos to help you in your decision...a few that has guided me in my decisions about the M47.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 11:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

IIRC, didn't the Italians get theirs from German stocks? If so, it is the Germans rather than the Italians that started the trend!


That doesn't necessarily follow. It is quite possible for the Italians to have added the gutters after the Germans passed them on without gutters. The Italians have depots that are quite capable of adding something like rain gutters if they want them.

Paul
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 11:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

IIRC, didn't the Italians get theirs from German stocks? If so, it is the Germans rather than the Italians that started the trend!


That doesn't necessarily follow. It is quite possible for the Italians to have added the gutters after the Germans passed them on without gutters. The Italians have depots that are quite capable of adding something like rain gutters if they want them.

Paul



If I have my data right, the Italian firms ASTRA SpA (?), and O.R.Mc.C (?), are solely responsible for the M47 modifications that featured the rain gutters, for their own military, beginning in the mid to late 60's, then eventually offered for export as they upgraded to other modern vehicles.