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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
M4A3E8Easy8
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Washington, United States
Joined: February 04, 2006
KitMaker: 281 posts
Armorama: 280 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 02:23 PM UTC
Mike
I have a suggestion for you. I noticed those nice circle cutters and seems you have a bit of 1/8 plastic stock.. well not enough for the beast..yet. But why not cut 1/8 disks for the inner most set of road wheels. Little black paint on the edge and some color on the rest and it looks like it will be impossible to see when the sides are assembled. You could make at least 1/3 of the wheels you need this way, and probably could also do the back side wheel on the middle set of tracks as well. Would save you lots of cash and the waiting on some one to make more panther road wheels. Just a though.
LeftyDan
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Illinois, United States
Joined: November 03, 2013
KitMaker: 77 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 03:19 PM UTC
I think he has the right idea. Punching out a lot of discs to make the inner road wheels would cut down on the expenses and delays significantly.
What's the diameter we're talking around here?
You might be able to get close with a hole cutting bit in a power drill. Just a thought.
Another idea might be to get the track and make it, but have inner wheels every few spaces rather than every single one.

That Maus turret looks so insignificant compared to this beast. A single person would look even smaller. Geez. Dimensionally, this thing is basically the front of a battleship.

Historical: With the degrading quality of German steel towards the end of the war, the thickness might help it. Probably not for 500lbs bombs, but it would be something. The flak towers were made well enough that the 203mm shells the Russians fired at them just sorta...scratched the paint as it were. Even now some of them still stand. Anyway, From a logistics standpoint this thing is a nightmare. I recall reading that the The American arsenal could produce 10 B-17s in the time in took the Germans to make a single Tiger. I imagine that the entire production run of M3 Lees, Grants, M3 Stuarts, M5 Stuarts could be built for this thing was made.
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
Armorama: 2,759 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 09:31 PM UTC
Hi Mike,

Lookin' ... BIG! (Gonna need a bigger car to take it to shows?)

On the road-wheel shortage, I'd go for simple flat-casting of all those "inner" wheels. Grab an Alumilite kit, make a simple one-part mould of the wheels by gluing them to flat sheet, and pour away! (I've done this a lot for railroad details, where the flat back side can't be seen in the dark under a passenger car...)

And I vote "yes" to the bigger Panther wheels as idlers - they would give a bigger radius to the curve at the end of the track run, which reduces stress from binding between the links as they go round the "corner". The rubber tires seem a waste given the chronic shortages in Germany at the time, but then the whole project was beyond their resources anyway. By the way, do you intend to anchor the outboard ends of the idler and sprocket axles in the outer plate of the sponson? They shouldn't need to have any springing (unlike road-wheel axles) so it makes sense to have a bearing at both ends of the axle. (Kinda like a WWI British heavy tank, where the idler and sprocket are trapped between the track frames.)
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 01:01 PM UTC
I was rather busy today on the Ratte.

Meet Oberfeldwebel Eichner. He's my Construction Boss. You desired to see some size-relations...well, here he is:



Like's the MAUS:



Installed the bottom of the track shell..well, one 24 inch piece. And that triangle-shaped part on the right is further reinforcement by the sprockets:



And a couple of pieces, lightly weighted, keeping the bottom up against its support:



And, preparation of changing out the 1/25th JagdPanther idlers for the JP's road wheels (bored out to take the 3/8ths inch copper tube (OFw E is taking copious invisible notes)):



Mike
AFVFan
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: May 17, 2012
KitMaker: 1,980 posts
Armorama: 1,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 10:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob, pretty sure somewhere along the line all the Main Armies had "Bigger = Better" in their mindset. It was inevitable. Mike



Agreed Mike, though most stopped well short of the 100 ton mark, realizing the limits of the equation.
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 12:06 PM UTC
No doubt Rob. No doubt. Towards the end I'm sure the Germans were "reaching far." Mind you, had roles been reversed...what then? The allies had (especially the US) a greater industrial base. With few exceptions, the US proper wasn't touched. What if the Germans had turned the tide on one front or another? The Japanese were the only ones that (IMO) could strike our mainland.

What if Germany pushed back the allied fight in Europe proper? On the Russian front? What if their immature Jets were able to hold off the Bombers?

What if, on the Eastern front (only place a beast like this could be used), they started pushing the Russians back to their home? What if the Russians decided to entrench in some of their bigger cities? A Ratte, though slow and lumbering, might (though not likely due to its weight) get within range.

One or two TRUE land battleships, with support, could literally destroy a city. And the rejuvenated ground troops would move in to clear the wastes.

Ahhh....What IF?

Mike
retiredyank
#160
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Arkansas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,338 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 12:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No doubt Rob. No doubt. Towards the end I'm sure the Germans were "reaching far." Mind you, had roles been reversed...what then? The allies had (especially the US) a greater industrial base. With few exceptions, the US proper wasn't touched. What if the Germans had turned the tide on one front or another? The Japanese were the only ones that (IMO) could strike our mainland.

What if Germany pushed back the allied fight in Europe proper? On the Russian front? What if their immature Jets were able to hold off the Bombers?

What if, on the Eastern front (only place a beast like this could be used), they started pushing the Russians back to their home? What if the Russians decided to entrench in some of their bigger cities? A Ratte, though slow and lumbering, might (though not likely due to its weight) get within range.

One or two TRUE land battleships, with support, could literally destroy a city. And the rejuvenated ground troops would move in to clear the wastes.

Ahhh....What IF?

Mike



What if it wasn't so heavy that it would sink into the ground, immobilized by its own weight?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 01:05 AM UTC
There are a lot of What-If's" to this.

Regardless, it's been a fun build so far. Not necessarily cheap mind you.

I need to get four more sheets of the 12" x 24" x 1/8" stock before I can actually glue the two halves together and add the front and back pieces. I need the "raw" edges of both sides as a template for the next half. Selling my 1/72nd kits to do this. (all good though - most likely won't build 'em)

I have added the JagdPanther road wheels to a piece of the copper tube. Because their diameter is much greater than the JP's idlers, I've had to shift the axle location (which may or may not require a slight shift of the road wheel next to them).

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:43 AM UTC
Grabbed my turret plans and some 1/16th stock and began laying out the bottom of the turret. Length and width are good. I was able to get the angles on the front marked. I enlarged one of the plan sections to get the curvature of the back figured. Now I'm just waiting on the wife to swing by Office Max / Depot (when she's done with her shopping) and see if they have a flexible curve ruler. If they do, great. If it's too expensive, then I'll go the "old skool" way and use a strip of my stock and some tape to get the curve. (hey, a new modeling tool would be nice )

Sold a couple kits and now I have 5 sheets of the 12 x 24 x 1/8 stock coming.

I also taped the sides of the track housing (and build a stand to keep things level) to start marking the locations for the MAUS and the two Kugelblitz's. And that is why I need the bottom of turret.

Mike
corsair924
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 388 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 12:05 PM UTC
Is it too soon to discuss interior layout and details
Sallyports for motorcycles?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 12:18 PM UTC
Coming close for this portion to be done...as soon as my new stock arrives, this one gets sealed up and work on some of the details begins:



Heheheh. Oy. The main turret base (or maybe only the template):



Mike
miniflea
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Virginia, United States
Joined: October 17, 2011
KitMaker: 237 posts
Armorama: 235 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 01:30 PM UTC
Apologies if you have answered this somewhere upthread, but are you planning on doing any sort of interior?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 04:17 PM UTC
No interior planned. BUT, I plan to have a hatch or two open on the main body...and there I will do some interior work. It'll be minimal, but there will be one or two spots for some extra work.

My thoughts: Hatch to the base of the main turret: steps and rail and some wiring above. One cupola on either the left or right sponson open, with maybe a commander below (kind of like he's about to come through the hatch).

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 12:36 PM UTC
As I await my thicker stock to arrive, I'm using my little bit of thinner 1/16th to work on the main turret. The turret base is good. Sides, roof, front, back...all will be reinforced with thicker 1/8th stock.

I've done the initial work on the lower half of one side:



Clamps, squares, T-pins.



Mike

P.S. My bench is such a mess!! Gaack!
BigfootV
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 24, 2005
KitMaker: 1,624 posts
Armorama: 994 posts
Posted: Monday, March 24, 2014 - 04:52 PM UTC
Hey Mike,

The build is coming along nicely. Can't wait for the barrels to get done. Any chance of them having breaches for counter-weight reasons of course. LOL.
Anyways, keep it going.

See ya in the funnies.................
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 267 posts
Armorama: 261 posts
Posted: Monday, March 24, 2014 - 09:42 PM UTC
Just to keep you dreaming, a Ratte on the move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKItVDjmlk8
erer270
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Ohio, United States
Joined: October 14, 2011
KitMaker: 41 posts
Armorama: 40 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 04:43 AM UTC
Cool idea to make the P-1000. And I like how it is coming.
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 2,896 posts
Armorama: 2,858 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 05:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No doubt Rob. No doubt. Towards the end I'm sure the Germans were "reaching far." Mind you, had roles been reversed...what then? The allies had (especially the US) a greater industrial base. With few exceptions, the US proper wasn't touched. What if the Germans had turned the tide on one front or another? The Japanese were the only ones that (IMO) could strike our mainland.

What if Germany pushed back the allied fight in Europe proper? On the Russian front? What if their immature Jets were able to hold off the Bombers?

What if, on the Eastern front (only place a beast like this could be used), they started pushing the Russians back to their home? What if the Russians decided to entrench in some of their bigger cities? A Ratte, though slow and lumbering, might (though not likely due to its weight) get within range.

One or two TRUE land battleships, with support, could literally destroy a city. And the rejuvenated ground troops would move in to clear the wastes.

Ahhh....What IF?

Mike



What if..? Well, for one thing, we'd all be speaking GERMAN, and quite possibly, at least a quarter of the world's population would have gone to the gas chambers, and thence to the ovens...
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 2,896 posts
Armorama: 2,858 posts
Posted: Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

No doubt Rob. No doubt. Towards the end I'm sure the Germans were "reaching far." Mind you, had roles been reversed...what then? The allies had (especially the US) a greater industrial base. With few exceptions, the US proper wasn't touched. What if the Germans had turned the tide on one front or another? The Japanese were the only ones that (IMO) could strike our mainland.

What if Germany pushed back the allied fight in Europe proper? On the Russian front? What if their immature Jets were able to hold off the Bombers?

What if, on the Eastern front (only place a beast like this could be used), they started pushing the Russians back to their home? What if the Russians decided to entrench in some of their bigger cities? A Ratte, though slow and lumbering, might (though not likely due to its weight) get within range.

One or two TRUE land battleships, with support, could literally destroy a city. And the rejuvenated ground troops would move in to clear the wastes.

Ahhh....What IF?

Mike



What if..? Well, for one thing, we'd all be speaking GERMAN, and quite possibly, at least a quarter of the world's population would have gone to the gas chambers, and thence to the ovens...



PS- Much of Eastern Europe is marshy, so sending any P-1000 Rattes to the East is questionable, and they might not have even gotten to fire their guns. IMO, I think the Germans might even have been very hard-pressed to send any E-100s into combat...

Still, it's a GREAT model-building project! My hat's off to you!!!
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 03, 2014 - 12:39 PM UTC
Been over a week since my last update. First off, I was working the turret. Sides were on...working out the roof...and THEN. Realized that SOMETHING in the measurements was off. Reprinted the scan, relooked, rethought...man...the plan measurements were off.

Eh, all good. Kept the base and had to rework the front angles. One side is now being glued to the reworked base. THIS should fix the mistakes.

My 1/8th stock came in. One side is traced and the other is now setting (two sheets glued end to end). By this weekend, both parts will be traced and I'll start to seal up the first half. After that? Ensuring the MAUS and Kugel's have a proper home.

Mike
Blackstoat
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 15, 2012
KitMaker: 560 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 03, 2014 - 08:45 PM UTC
I notice you've made a mistake on your measurements!

Your desk, it's way too small!

barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 04, 2014 - 12:48 AM UTC
The fun part comes when Mike has to demolish the wall of his workshop to get the finished model out!
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Friday, April 04, 2014 - 11:14 AM UTC
LOL you two!

When I'm done renovating my shop, there may be the second Craftsman bench there. Sure could use it!!

Tom, it will fit width-wise through the door. Not sure about turning into the hall...kinda like a king size mattress going from a hall to a bed room. Heh!

Mike
Blackstoat
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, April 04, 2014 - 12:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

LOL you two!

When I'm done renovating my shop, there may be the second Craftsman bench there. Sure could use it!!

Tom, it will fit width-wise through the door. Not sure about turning into the hall...kinda like a king size mattress going from a hall to a bed room. Heh!

Mike



So you're going to sleep with it?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 04, 2014 - 12:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So you're going to sleep with it?



Uh...No. I would like to enter it in a show though. Don't know how to go about that...but I'm sure, some day I will figure it out.

Mike