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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 06:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Or, an armored Segway, maybe..?


I like that idea!




You know, I think I just might try it, just for a goof! I may even try the "Sprocket, Road-Wheel and Rear Idler Tank" concept as well! I CERTAINLY have a lot of surplus junk in my "Spares" parts organizer boxes...

Seriously, how could the Germans even consider such a monstrosity actually going into combat? They CERTAINLY had enough problems in even trying to get their Panthers, Tiger Is and Tiger IIs deployed!!! I doubt that German industry, or indeed, ANY industry could have rolled such gargantuan sheets of armor...
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 11:05 AM UTC
Paul, that concept is (I believe) what I have drawn up earlier on the inside. I could replace the first bit of brass tube that goes over the wheel's axle with thick block like you've shown. It is a possibility.

Corsair, my 'shop' is in the midst of being framed and sheeted. I have a second Craftsman bench (just like this one) in the garage (along with another workbench). Depending on how I set my shop up, that one may come downstairs to augment work space.

Dennis, I'm not one to ask them. But I am one to build it! LOL! End result for me will be having learned a LOT! Conceptually, structurally, imaginatively, et al. This is an enjoyable "ride" for me (aside from the fact that the Hobbylinc materials aren't here YET!!). I hope this ride is fun for others too. From the "Oh wow!" to the "You're nuts, SMH :/ "

So, here's the concept that I believe Easy8 was suggesting?



Mike


barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 12:24 PM UTC
Hi Mike,

I'd be tempted to turn the spacers sideways so they span across all three tracks, directly over a road wheel. They'd look like a series of transverse ribs (like the cleats on the track!) running along the underside of the "shelf" where nobody will see them. That way you'd get even weight distribution to reduce any stresses.

Goodness knows how they ever hoped to make the real ones work! My guess is a "final" draft would have replaced the torsion-bar axles with an axle trapped at both inboard and outboard ends in a simple railway-truck style of vertically-sprung journal.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 01:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My guess is a "final" draft would have replaced the torsion-bar axles with an axle trapped at both inboard and outboard ends in a simple railway-truck style of vertically-sprung journal.



Ha haa...I thought about that. But...I'd lose a lot of the "visibility" of the road wheels which is one thing I really want.

:)

Mike
urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 01:17 PM UTC























I doubt that German industry, or indeed, ANY industry could have rolled such gargantuan sheets of armor... [/quote]

you should see their battleships
M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 02:45 PM UTC
That is exactly what I was talking about. I am pretty sure that the set up like that will take the load with ease. Unless you start getting into something crazy up top.. like a solid resin turret.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 03:07 PM UTC
The turret up top will be 1/16th inch stock with some reinforcing 1/8th ribs. The barrels? Haven't gotten that part figured yet. It was mentioned that fiberglass fishing rods might work. I have errands to run tomorrow, so I may take a set of calipers and "go shopping."

Mike
M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 07:57 PM UTC
With the size this thing is going to be you neb to put two paint ball guns in it and a motion tracking system to aim em and put the beast in the front yard to run off dogs and small kids... And the amway salesman
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 12:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Not to be a "stick-in-the-mud", but weren't WWII battleships built up from a bunch of steel plates riveted or welded together..? That "RATTE" looks like it would have been built up from gigantic single plates of armor dwarfing the steel plates used to build up ships' hulls..? I'm not knocking the model OR the builder of this fantastic project, I'm just questioning why the Germans would have entertained building such a behemoth... Of course, AH always did like impractical, gargantuan AND idiotic projects. Even the E-100 and the MAUS would have posed bigger problems than Panthers, Tiger Is and Tiger IIs...
























I doubt that German industry, or indeed, ANY industry could have rolled such gargantuan sheets of armor...



you should see their battleships [/quote]
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 01:51 AM UTC
Regarding the armor (as I can't opine how they would have/could have or just what they were thinking): I read somewhere that it was suggested that the armor was about 8 inches thick on the sides and rear and almost 14 inches in the front.

The only place the thickness of the armor can be seen on this build is under the outer sides of the armor skirts by the road wheels. 8 inches in 1/35th equates to .228 inches or about 7/32nds of an inch. Finding sheet stock in that thickness is ... heck, don't know if you can. The next decimal equivalent UP is .250 or 1/4th inch. Going down, it's .1875 or 3/16th of an inch. 1/4 inch is too much/too expensive and too difficult to cut. 3/16th's is not. Considering I've already got 2/16th's (1/8th) for the sides, I can 1) add a 1/16th sheet to the outside or 2)add a 1/16th strip to the bottom of the inside.

I'm leaning both ways on this: #1 would allow me to "define" the exterior armor plates by cutting 3-5 inch wide sheets and adding them directly to the current side plate. #2 is easiest and I can scribe the plate joints. Eh. Dunno.

I'm not worried about the rear's thickness as it can't be seen. The front? The actual glacis joins can't be seen but, they could be seen on the front two sections that cover the tracks. 14 inches in 1/35th equates to .40 inches or 13/32nd's of an inch. Closet UP is like 7/16ths' of an inch (way thick) or DOWN is 3/8th's inch. That I can do (but won't need to ).

Here's my thought on that...just like on the KT's.

(photo for discussion only. Borrowed from Sergionex posted on Planet Armor)



This is my thought for doing the front areas (front and sides).

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 05:22 AM UTC
Ran some errands of which one was a trip to WalMart's Sporting Goods section. Dimensions and digital calipers in hand, I sought out the fiberglass fishing poles.

Weellll...the expandable fly rods are quite inexpensive...less than $10.00. I can easily get the muzzle diameter and the base diameter...but can't get the two to mesh where they'd meet in the middle; too long a distance apart. If I cut two sections apart for this, I'd have almost an 1/8th of an inch gap. I can't cover or hide that without some serious surgery.

I can get the barrels done on a 3D printer...at about $100.00 for the pair. I could probably find a company around Colorado Springs that could turn them in aluminum (no rifling), but no idea of cost (or the weight of such large barrels). Another option is for me to turn them out of either wood or plastic on my lathe. Cost for wood? Zero, just time. Cost for plastic? A couple of bucks and time. Barrel length is about 14-1/2 inches. Big guns.

Thankfully, the barrels can wait up until it's time to add a color scheme to the Beastie.

Mike

P.S. My brain likes to multi-task while typing. Have thoughts about fly rods. I could take the sections I need and cut them across the "top," spread the larger diameter end with a dowel, secure that, and then fill the resulting gap with epoxy. That may not be too hard considering. And the weight is the rods is minuscule compared to aluminum or maybe even the 3D print. Kind of liking this thought train. $20.00 and time? LOL, already considering how I can add rifling to the muzzle!! Kneadatite or the like....

P.S.S. Give me a day off work and it's only me and the dogs and cats here (wife's at work)...and a mind will wander. Lordy, I need to retire (permanently).
BigfootV
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 06:14 AM UTC
Hey Mike,

Am I thinking that a mock up in wood for the barrels would be the easy way to go before spending the money on the 3D printing or the alum. barrels.

That way you can have a template for the 3D and alum. barrels.

Just a thinking...........

See ya in the funnies.............
sassgrunt
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 04:12 PM UTC
Mike, I'm not sure if I'm reading your problem with the flyrods correctly. If the parts have a 'ridge' where they join together, maybe it's possible for you to use a second part that's identical to the smaller part, and cut it so that it slides over the smaller part until it meets up with the end of the larger part. Then you'd have one long piece that you could cut to length. Does that make sense?
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 02:26 AM UTC
Hey Mike, this may better describe the issue with the fly rod:



Brian, someone has been kind enough to do up the CAD of the barrels for me. I'm sure, because of cost, that I'd go 3D over aluminum (weight too). The lathe idea is like making a turned pen, just bigger!

Mike
John_O
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Posted: Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 09:45 PM UTC
Good luck with this build! I'm rooting for you!

John
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 12:56 AM UTC
Thanks John!

We may see one side of the track housing done very soon.

Mike
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul, that concept is (I believe) what I have drawn up earlier on the inside. I could replace the first bit of brass tube that goes over the wheel's axle with thick block like you've shown. It is a possibility.

Corsair, my 'shop' is in the midst of being framed and sheeted. I have a second Craftsman bench (just like this one) in the garage (along with another workbench). Depending on how I set my shop up, that one may come downstairs to augment work space.

Dennis, I'm not one to ask them. But I am one to build it! LOL! End result for me will be having learned a LOT! Conceptually, structurally, imaginatively, et al. This is an enjoyable "ride" for me (aside from the fact that the Hobbylinc materials aren't here YET!!). I hope this ride is fun for others too. From the "Oh wow!" to the "You're nuts, SMH :/ "

So, here's the concept that I believe Easy8 was suggesting?



Mike





Hi, ALL! Undoubtedly, this is going to be a project of huge proportions, especially in 1/35 scale. I'm sure it will be followed with great interest by many modellers, myself included!

Mike, I admire you for taking on a project of such magnitude, and for trying to figure out and actually building the hull, structural components, turrets and mechanicals (tracks, suspensions and so forth) to present a believable model.

Any comments that I've already made on this particular blog are not meant to be critical of your ideas and other modellers' thoughts and contributions. Rather, I'm questioning the soundness (sanity) of the people running the NAZI "War Machine" in even considering such an unwieldy and impractical vehicle...

Was this thing only meant to be used as a "movable fort"..? I can't see this vehicle being involved in a tank vs. tank confrontation, where mobility is a key prerequisite in tank design... Even with that extensive suspension/track layout, wouldn't all of that weight have created a nightmare of ground-pressure issues?

Again, how could the Germans, who were being bombed day and night by the USAAF and the RAF, and with the Soviet juggernaut relentlessly taking German territory and assets in the East, actually manufacture such huge, thick rolled armor plates to assemble such a behemoth? The German industrial base was fast-becoming not much more than a gigantic pile of rubble, with their supply of raw materials disappearing by the hour...
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 10:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Any comments that I've already made on this particular blog are not meant to be critical of your ideas and other modellers' thoughts and contributions. Rather, I'm questioning the soundness (sanity) of the people running the NAZI "War Machine" in even considering such an unwieldy and impractical vehicle...



ALL comments are accepted and enjoyed. ALL. This beast is being built as all can see. I do listen to all comments. I read and heed. All comments are valued.

LOL, and the Question of how or why will never be answered. I'm building this because it's badddasss. Period. I'll put my time, effort, and cash into it. More importantly to me is the input. So many have added to this. Truly, it's not all my build, but ours. Dig?

Pictures coming!!

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 11:36 AM UTC
I've begun bracing the track housing...and I've cut the pieces for the front and back.







Inner side setting on the framing:





And the base of the first MAUS turret:







Clean up is needed, but you get the drift:





Mike
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 12:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've begun bracing the track housing...and I've cut the pieces for the front and back.







Inner side setting on the framing:





And the base of the first MAUS turret:







Clean up is needed, but you get the drift:





Mike



WOW!!! The hull on this thing is almost as big as a 1:1 scale SNOWPLOW!!!
hofpig
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 01:37 AM UTC
My god that thing was big no wonder they never built one LOL

Paul
AFVFan
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 01:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... Rather, I'm questioning the soundness (sanity) of the people running the NAZI "War Machine" in even considering such an unwieldy and impractical vehicle...



Dennis, it wasn't only the Germans. One of the ideas proposed in the French camp towards the end of WW1 was a 600 ton tank. The project was cancelled when the war ended.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 12:31 PM UTC
Dennis, it is...big. And what you see is about 1/4th of the width, left to right.

Heh, indeed Paul!

Bob, pretty sure somewhere along the line all the Main Armies had "Bigger = Better" in their mindset. It was inevitable.

;) Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 12:47 PM UTC
Got home, changed, and went to the contemplation chair (Craftsman Bar Stool in front of my work bench). I taped the inner side to the outer/support, and installed one set of road wheels, the side's idlers, and drives:



Side view from the outside front:


Note, the center of the "axle" is below the outer armor. Ahhh...I have an idea!

Overall, kinda blurry. Sorry:


I still need 72 road wheels (and one of the members of the company in Australia has told me: "Please contact other sellers about the wheels. We do not have that." Yeah, no bueno hoss. Sent another message to the gent I've been working with. Hope to hear back. If not, I'll call them!).

Bottom view down the front. I plan on a bit more side-to-side reinforcing (which is that taped triangle thing you see):



Idlers in the back:


Same as the sprockets...the center is behind the outer armor. Again, got an idea!

Second idea about the idlers...use the 1/25th main Panther road wheels! Not 100% sure, but...I think it'll be better! I can hide the "rubberness" to them:



There's where it sits...in a quarter of it's glory. Heh.

Mike
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 01:19 PM UTC
This is insanity! Love it! I considered this project, many years ago. And, I realized that it was far past my scope of building. Hope I see this one at IPMS Nats.