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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
sassgrunt
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Hawaii, United States
Joined: December 18, 2005
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 7 posts
Posted: Monday, December 30, 2013 - 03:57 PM UTC
As far as the barrel goes, one of the things you might consider is a collapsible graphite fishing pole. There are 3 or 4 pieces that nest inside each other, and sell for around $10 at Walmart. They're strong, lightweight, have a gradual taper, and take paint well. But mostly - they're cheap enough to experiment with. -Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 12:55 AM UTC
Just checked the measurements of the barrels base and tip on the plans of the turret provided: check my math -

Barrel length:
49mm @ 1:200 = 49*200 = 9800mm @ 1:1 9800 / 35 = 280mm @ 1:35 or 11.02 inches in length

Barrel base diameter:
4mm @ 1:200 = 4*200 = 800mm @ 1:1 800 / 35 = 22.85mm @ 1:35 or 0.89 inches in diameter

Barrel tip diameter:
2.8mm @ 1:200 = 2.8*200 = 560mm @ 1:1 560 / 35 = 16mm @ 1:35 or 0.62 inches in diameter

Not sure if I'd find a rod or antenna that size in diameter. Though admittedly, it's a great idea! Glad I have a set of calipers!

Mike
nng-nng
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2013
KitMaker: 380 posts
Armorama: 376 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 02:49 AM UTC
mhh... antennas from radios I know are way smaller... maybe he build it in 1:72?

Ive just got the pic in mind and some fragments of the text around...but simply cant find it.... arhhg... Im getting old

But youll have you fun running around with the calipers

Edit: seems like it was 1:35, but a way smaller calibre... might be that things got messed up in my brain

Athough he didnt worte it here, the barrel seems to be a radio antenna:

http://www.wettringer-modellbauforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=23577&pageNo=1
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
Armorama: 2,759 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 03:41 AM UTC
Hmmm. Assuming an "average" diameter of 19mm, at 1mm wall thickness that'd be about 12cm3 of material. I could design you a barrel in CAD so you could order 3D prints from Shapeways, but as they charge by cm3 their cheapest material (at $1.40/cm3) would set you back about $17 per barrel plus shipping etc. Their better Frosted Detail material would run about $36/barrel. If you have a decent profile drawing of the barrel to email me, I'd knock up the CAD work gratis...

Bear in mind you also need some kind of "stump" on the barrel so it can fit into a socket on the turret (unless you'd like a full breach & trunions?) that'll add more material & cost to the prints.

If you go that route, the cheap "White Strong & Flexible" material is a sintered nylon that has a texture like fine sandpaper. It is bendy (needs an internal rod support) but could be sanded smooth and sealed for painting. It is very porous until sealed.

The Frosted Detail stuff is an acrylic polymer, more akin to normal resin, and is much smoother. (Might still need a fine sanding to remove any printing lines...) I'd still recommend a rod insert for stiffness, but it is less critical.

PM me if interested.
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 11:45 AM UTC
One of the other things I want to add to the front of the Ratte are a couple of Royal Model "Kugelblende" Ball Mounts. I know of two types; Panther and Tiger II. They look similar, but the Panther's a cheaper. Thoughts?

Mike, most likely I'll hit up Wally World this weekend and take a look around.

Fabian, "Seeing" the antenna used really makes a difference from just visualizing. I will most certainly keep that in mind!

Tom, I make take you up on the CAD. And yes, needs to have a teat at the back end for the mounting. Can you open Office 2010 Excel? (silly question I'm sure) I can email you a "to scale" .xls file if that'll work. Would REALLY be great if that CAD would show the muzzle opening and the teat at the back...et cetera. I can include a couple of images of the real thing.

My son has got me two sheets of 1/8th inch by 12 by 24 inches sheet styrene (belated Christmas). Should be here this weekend. Ah, any future purchases will need to wait until next EOM. Still, plenty to draw, design, and...YES, BUILD!!

Mike

p.s. Tom, can a "regular" post be turned into a BLOG with the * by an admin? Or, should this post be the question/idea/thought post and a new Blog for the build? And, can an Admin add a line of text to the First Post of this topic? I.E. "Questions/Ideas/Thoughts are Page 1 - 4, Blog starts on Page 5" or something like that?
corsair924
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 388 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 01:35 PM UTC
When I first scan-read your last post I didn't realize you were referring to 'just' machine-gun mounts.
are you considering some AT guns for the front?
Several of the images of the Ratte show a hull mounted gun in the 75-88 mm range with limited traverse.
this mallet (I don't think thats the right term) might be ordered as a spare part from Dragon


by the way--let me know how much the 11" barrels cost, I think I want 3---insert maniacal snicker
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 03:40 PM UTC
Ha HA! J P! Thanks for stopping by!

The option of adding a Jagd-style secondary or tertiary gun is indeed on the plate of...possibilities. More than likely it'll happen...Something JagdTiger-like or JagdPanther. We'll see. Based on 280mm mains, two MAUS turrets....thinking 88mm min...128mm max. (probably 88mm)

"Mallet" is close. "Mantlet" is the term. BTW, VERY interesting build you posted; Tiger (P). I like it for it's unusualness.

Heck, it could be two guns. I'm going to fool around and, on paper only, mess with internals of this...I.E. see where MG mounts would make sense; see where the Jagd-style gun(s) could go. No, I'm not going to build the internals of this one. THIS build is purely "a 1/35th prototype" with a future potential. Think 1/35th Dora...albeit "Paper Panzer." Hehehehehhe.

Mike
corsair924
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 388 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 03:22 AM UTC
Hi Mike,
wish the picture was mine but I don't remember where I found it.
Just wondering if you were going for an 'inne' (Jadgpanther) or an 'outie' (Jadgpanzer IV)
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 04:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just wondering if you were going for an 'inne' (Jadgpanther) or an 'outie' (Jadgpanzer IV)



I'll probably go with what ever I get my hands on first. Panzer Art/Armorscale JagdPanther mantlets are available online easy enough as is the whole shebang from Czech Masters. Also appears there are plenty of JagdPanzer IV set ups. (unfortunately I have neither tank in my stash so AM may be the way to go [and looking at eBay, I'm not buying a kit just for the mantlet and barrel!])

May have to hit up the BST forum.

Mike
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
Armorama: 2,759 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 11:38 AM UTC
Hi Mike,

I've emailed you regarding the xls, and have asked up the food-chain regarding changing this thread to a build-log.

Happy New Year!

Tom
barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
Armorama: 2,759 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 02, 2014 - 05:22 AM UTC
...and as if by magic, it's a build log!

(Thanks to Darren aka CMOT!)
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 02:42 AM UTC
Well now. Good timing! After a fubarlito with the USPS, two sheets of 12" x 24" x 1/8" styrene stock showed up yesterday. Very nice.

The BLOG will begin. First up will be the hull-tub sides and getting the road wheel axles marked and drilled and the basic lower hull shape.

Need to install a door in the basement bedroom Saturday, but once that's done...it's Scratch Time!

Mike
LeftyDan
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Illinois, United States
Joined: November 03, 2013
KitMaker: 77 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 03:06 PM UTC
Hey Mike, been a bit since we've heard about this..What's up with this build?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 11:59 PM UTC
Has been a few, hasn't it? Family came in from Michigan, so a lot of things are on hold for a bit more. I'm going to try and sneak down to the shop and clear the bench of a couple projects and start getting things laid out.

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 09:38 AM UTC
Grand news! It's started! Let the pictures tell the tale (along with some script)!

Update coming very soon!

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 10:08 AM UTC
As mentioned before, I got some 1/8th plastic sheet. I had to glue two pieces together to get a basic 36" length (this minus the sections for the sprockets and idlers).

Once "dry," I laid out the height from bottom of where I wanted the road wheels to lay. I then calculated the distances, marked, and set on the stock as you see here:



I had previously gone to Lowes this morning (closer than HobbyTown) in hopes that they may have something I could use for "axles." What I found, that fit these road wheels to a T were:

8-32 threaded rod
8-32 nuts
#8 washers
and some copper tube:



The copper tube fit perfect into the outer side of the road wheel (where the cap would go):



And, with a wee bit of a drill bit:



Fit nice to the inside of the road wheel OVER it's axle:



I then took three road wheels and three sets of track and laid them out to get an idea of the track spacing:



From there, I measured the space using a caliper and cut some of the tube to length:



And, here are the road wheels, with "spacers" on the track. There is some play in the track, but that's about perfect:



IMO, the copper tube, though you really won't see it, makes for a (as commented before; a tree trunk...)axle.

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
Armorama: 2,188 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 10:29 AM UTC
Oh yeah, I now have TWO of the four Verlinden Kugelblitz's, two Royal Model Kugleblende ball mounts, and two RB antenna mounts.

Still debating about a front mounted hull cannon from either a JagdPanther or JagdPanzer. Or...lol, one or two shorties from a Sturmgeschutz III?

Mike
barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,231 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 10:51 AM UTC
Looks like the running gear is coming together - can't wait to see it mounted on a hull tub!

As for a gun on the front, what's it for? If anti-tank, then a JP gun would look great. If anti-infantry then you'd want a short-barrelled Stug type gun, for lobbing HE shells. Then again, maybe a beast this big would have one of each?
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:25 AM UTC
Most of the pics I see seem to show a long barreled gun in the front. But, artistic license mixed with "quite possible" is what I'm looking at.

Oh, the main bit of this for sure will conform to most plans/ideas for the Ratte; I may or may not add to it. No, no bazillion MGs or Atomic weapons or any of that. Just some common sensical additions. Antennas, hatches, et cetera. I am however, looking forward to the rear engine deck! Oh...the ideas for grates, fans, and the like. And small things like spare track, road wheels, and the little detail things.

Just happy I'm finally beyond ONLY paper and now working in plastic and copper.

Mike
corsair924
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 388 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:49 AM UTC
Not to short circuit this whole process but this just popped up on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/181315216930?ssPageName=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649
But I don't think buying would be as much fun as building
nng-nng
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2013
KitMaker: 380 posts
Armorama: 376 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 12:23 PM UTC
Good to see progress
mhh, currently buying is way cheaper building, current bid is 1 (plus 6,90 shipping in Germany), and just 2 Days left

If i just had more space....
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,610 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 12:32 PM UTC
Short circuit? No way. But, interesting there's a 1/35th out there. Looks familiar, but...don't recall it being 1/35. Cool tho.

Mike
barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 01:43 AM UTC
Well, it's 103 Euros now, so not as good a bargain. And you only get two tracks per side!

Any idea where the "command bridge" was located? I'm guessing there's a war-room in that angled bit under the turret, looking like a cross between the deck of the Enterprise and the Death star...
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 12:28 PM UTC
Were I to build an interior, then yes...the "command center" would be behind the front glacis. And it'd be full of gauges, little lights, and valves. Alas, not happening. No.

I had to go back to the "paper and pen" for a few today. Needed to firm up the vehicle's height (without turret and turret riser) and play with the front and rear angles. Just about 98% there on the angles.

This one is the front. Drive sprockets and first set of road wheels are spaced. The front angle you see is only for the housing of the track:



Here's merely the center showing the 8.75 inch height:



And finally the rear and it's track housing angles:



Mike
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 12:33 PM UTC
Oh, because of the potential weight of this thing, literally supported ONLY by a #8 threaded rod, I may well completely drill out the road wheels, sprockets, and idlers to accept the copper tube with a dowel rod in for additional support.

I mean, looking...thinking...wondering... That's a lot of weight on a skinny bit of metal. I've already tested the 3/8th's bit on one part, and if I go right and slow, I can drill through it all without jacking any up. It...well, is making sense now to do this.

Mike