Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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New/Modified M60 with 120mm
Tankrider
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Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:34 AM UTC
Cool looking Dinosaur...

Since we are all speculating, here is my opinion as I know nothing specific.

I concur with Gino as my research led me to believe that the Raytheon upgrade for the Jordanian M60's was for the FCS. So I would propose that we are looking at on eof two things. First, an upgrade for the Egyptians who are using M1A1s as well as M60A3s??? By using the M256120mm gun, and T-156 track shorten up number of CL V selections as well as CL IX repair parts. I would agree on the boxes on the rear might be APU and A/C. It looks to me that the TC's cupola might now sport a MK19 40MM GL instead of the M85, based on the bins running around the outside. EDIT: I will revise my 40mm idea and agree that the cupola has been modified to accept components of the Remote Weapons Station... Should have looked at all of the pictures before I started sprouting "dem idears"...

Second option might be an Unban Combat capability demonstrator... The vehicle has the RPG screens, cameras and upgraded Cupola, skirts and unique suspension. Saying that, the lack of additional turret armor or mounting studs for additonal armor packages has me baffled. The bar/slat RPG cage is unique but the whole package seems lacking for M60 v. tank combat... Perhaps more fitting fo the urban landscape??

Those are my SWAGs

John
Merki4
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Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 - 11:09 PM UTC
...just a curiosity, but why Abrams tank didnt mount fully last generation composite side skirt instead the older weak steel ones?
Lucio
Tankrider
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 06:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...just a curiosity, but why Abrams tank didnt mount fully last generation composite side skirt instead the older weak steel ones?
Lucio



Lucio,
The M1 series tanks did mount a combination of composite and steel side skirts. Look at the firt two skirts on the left side and the first three(?) skirts on the right side and you will see that they are thicker than the other sections. those thicker ones contain "special" armor, similar to the armor developed at Chobbham in the UK.

John
awarnke
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 12:48 PM UTC
"but why Abrams tank didnt mount fully last generation composite side skirt instead the older weak steel ones" probably a combination of politics,cost, and weight management in the early M1s. Those composite guards on the front weigh much more then just steel plates. Probably should be noted that the M1 was never fitted with Chobahm,in fact, American M1s never saw anything in the way of cermic based armour but Australian M1s did.
majjanelson
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Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 03:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

... Probably should be noted that the M1 was never fitted with Chobahm,in fact, American M1s never saw anything in the way of cermic based armour but Australian M1s did.



May I ask where you obtianed this information?

I have multiple references that indicate M1s recieved an US Army's Ballistic Research Labratories developed Steel/Ceramic "Special Armor" derived from the British "Burlington" Chobahm Armor. I also understand that Depleted Uranium Armor was incorporated after M1A1 production had started.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 03:51 PM UTC
Hey Jeff,

Great catch!

FWIW, I'd guess a test-bed for urban or LIC similar to the Merkava III or IV BAZ LIC. The optics on the rear corners might be for the driver to use in tight situations and the box around the cupola might be for an extra large ammo load for an external mount MG.

Looks like there might be some other IDF inspired optics / sensors on the turret too.

The armor is beefed up to RPG-proof standards but not to an MBT vs. MBT level. The brackets you noted on the hull bottom might be for a set of the removable anti-mine belly plates like are used on the latest Merkavas.

Given where you saw it, I'd guess it's either bound for Camp Lajune or FBGA. If it was headed down to Charleston for export, it would have been on I-95 or I-26.

So, we gonna have a bettin' pool going here?
majjanelson
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 07:05 AM UTC
Mike,

I agree with your assessment of the alterations.

If the truck was going to FBGA, he was lost since he was heading EAST on I-20 in SC. If he was going to the Charleston Port, he was passed I-26 exit on I-20.

I think Camp Legune, Fort Bragg (maybe), FBVA (Research), Aberdeen (if they still do testing), or maybe even a Defense Show say in DC?

Wading Pool?
fhvn4d
#159
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 07:29 AM UTC
Looks like there are a fair amount of cameras and sensors on there. Could you tell what the items covered in styrofoam wrap and duct tape are ??? I am wondering if this is remote controlled or autonomous vehicle test bed... If it was going north maybe to APG ???
TacticalSquirrel
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 11:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mike,

I agree with your assessment of the alterations.

If the truck was going to FBGA, he was lost since he was heading EAST on I-20 in SC. If he was going to the Charleston Port, he was passed I-26 exit on I-20.

I think Camp Legune, Fort Bragg (maybe), FBVA (Research), Aberdeen (if they still do testing), or maybe even a Defense Show say in DC?

Wading Pool?



Isn't the AUSA show coming up next week?
majjanelson
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 01:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Could you tell what the items covered in styrofoam wrap and duct tape are ???



The two cover items on the hull beside the front fenders should be the headlights, since they are behind what appear to be headlight guards.

The covered item beside the Driver's Hatch I mentioned about halfway down on page 1. It could be a camera "box", but what does show it reminds me of a Blue Force Tracker. Of course, I'm saying that's what it is, just that it reminds me of one.

But I REALLY would like to find out what it is.
Trisaw
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 03:20 PM UTC
What is that can cylinder on turret top? Could that be Boomerang? If so, isn't Boomerang's antennaes normally exposed?

And no one replied to my question about the "II3" marking on the hull corner...2nd Armored?

And are all Maritime Prepositioning Ships outfitted with M1s now?
Thatguy
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 03:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And no one replied to my question about the "II3" marking on the hull corner...2nd Armored?


Looks like an arbitrary hull number of some sort. Definitely not 2nd Armored Division (which would be written 2AD), which has been inactivate for some time now.
shopkin4
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 04:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Mike,

I agree with your assessment of the alterations.

If the truck was going to FBGA, he was lost since he was heading EAST on I-20 in SC. If he was going to the Charleston Port, he was passed I-26 exit on I-20.

I think Camp Legune, Fort Bragg (maybe), FBVA (Research), Aberdeen (if they still do testing), or maybe even a Defense Show say in DC?

Wading Pool?



Isn't the AUSA show coming up next week?



Not next week but very soon. I had a feeling that this was going there
majjanelson
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 04:41 PM UTC
AUSA 2011 Annual Meeting & Exposition is 10-12 OCT11 at the Walter E. Washington Convention Center, D.C. per their webpage

Is somebody going to be there?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 - 12:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


And are all Maritime Prepositioning Ships outfitted with M1s now?



Yes, PrePo ships and stocks have been all M1s for quite some time now. M60s were pretty much out of the active force shortly after ODS ('90-'91). A few hung around in the National Guard after that, but not for too long. Most M60s were either sold to foreign buyers or became artificial reefs and range targets.

I would be surprised if this was actually for the US military. The M60 production line has long been shut down and it would be more expensive to restart it than it would be to take existing Abrams tank hulls and modify them. Plus the logistical tail would be hugely expensive to bring back a long out of service vehicle.
shopkin4
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 - 02:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

AUSA 2011 Annual Meeting & Exposition is 10-12 OCT11 at the Walter E. Washington Convention Center, D.C. per their webpage

Is somebody going to be there?



That show is extremely difficult to get into. I know my job won't send me at least for another 3-5 years
Tankrider
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 - 04:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


And are all Maritime Prepositioning Ships outfitted with M1s now?



Yes, PrePo ships and stocks have been all M1s for quite some time now. M60s were pretty much out of the active force shortly after ODS ('90-'91). A few hung around in the National Guard after that, but not for too long. Most M60s were either sold to foreign buyers or became artificial reefs and range targets.

I would be surprised if this was actually for the US military. The M60 production line has long been shut down and it would be more expensive to restart it than it would be to take existing Abrams tank hulls and modify them. Plus the logistical tail would be hugely expensive to bring back a long out of service vehicle.



I am still thinking that this is an upgrade for countries to upgrade their existing M60 fleets. That lack of a turret reactive armor package and the turret bar armor still puzzles me... Might make an interesting conversion with some imaginitive scratchbuilding thrown in... Hmmmm...

John
crockett
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"but why Abrams tank didnt mount fully last generation composite side skirt instead the older weak steel ones" probably a combination of politics,cost, and weight management in the early M1s. Those composite guards on the front weigh much more then just steel plates. Probably should be noted that the M1 was never fitted with Chobahm,in fact, American M1s never saw anything in the way of cermic based armour but Australian M1s did.



Your statement is incorrect. I am in the cupola in this photo of PV-5 (XM1 prototype). I was the assigned TC on this vehicle from 1978 to 1979.. H co. 2/6 CAV, Ft. Knox. I subsequently worked for GD at the Lima Army Tank Plant for 16 years, building Abrams tanks.
I can assure you that the #1 and #2 skirts were "special" armor on the prototypes and the production vehicles. I cannot say anymore, as I am bound by oath upon exiting from the program. I have taken part in the fabrication of all the armor packages on the M1. You are misinformed.


mmeier
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 10:17 AM UTC
Fiiting a 120mm Rheinmetall (or it's various licence build copies) should work. After all one would fit in the Leopard 1A2 turrets (Leopard 1A6 variant) and the M60 turret seems to be a bit "roomier"

awarnke
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 10:43 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

"but why Abrams tank didnt mount fully last generation composite side skirt instead the older weak steel ones" probably a combination of politics,cost, and weight management in the early M1s. Those composite guards on the front weigh much more then just steel plates. Probably should be noted that the M1 was never fitted with Chobahm,in fact, American M1s never saw anything in the way of cermic based armour but Australian M1s did.



Your statement is incorrect. I am in the cupola in this photo of PV-5 (XM1 prototype). I was the assigned TC on this vehicle from 1978 to 1979.. H co. 2/6 CAV, Ft. Knox. I subsequently worked for GD at the Lima Army Tank Plant for 16 years, building Abrams tanks.
I can assure you that the #1 and #2 skirts were "special" armor on the prototypes and the production vehicles. I cannot say anymore, as I am bound by oath upon exiting from the program. I have taken part in the fabrication of all the armor packages on the M1. You are misinformed.

Which statement is that? I never said all the skirts were all steel. Also as for the 'special' armour, according to Janes the M1's armour is laminated steel just like the T-72's armour. I guess that would explain why so many M1s, at least 80, were KO'ed in Iraq while so few Chally IIs were KO'ed. Would also explain why the Australian gov't proudly touted their M1s as having special composites as opposed to Uranuim. I have nothing to gain monterily either. Clearly you are misinformed.
retiredyank
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 11:11 AM UTC
Ok. I have a spare M60A1 and a spare M1(Esci and Italeri). Between the two of them, I think I can scratchbuild it.
As for the tank, I'll check with my dad tommorrow. He's retired from two tours in the EOD and another 25 years of being employed by the fed. gov. He still carries a high level security clearance(something about knowing how to manufacture a nuclear missile) and keeps tabs on the US military's new toys.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 11:57 AM UTC
I'm still thinking this is a US test-bed version for the Merkava-type LIC equipment.

The cylindrical sensor on the turret appears to me to be a refined version of the Merkava "driod" sensor:



Don't know why the US military would do all this on an M60 chassis instead of an M1, but I'd guess there're still enough M60/48 vehicles in stocks that it could be an "austerity" solution for LIC / urban ops or an export package for up-grading other end-users.

Still pitching in my .02 cents...
TonyDz
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 02:26 PM UTC


Quoted Text

Which statement is that? I never said all the skirts were all steel. Also as for the 'special' armour, according to Janes the M1's armour is laminated steel just like the T-72's armour. I guess that would explain why so many M1s, at least 80, were KO'ed in Iraq while so few Chally IIs were KO'ed. Would also explain why the Australian gov't proudly touted their M1s as having special composites as opposed to Uranuim. I have nothing to gain monterily either. Clearly you are misinformed.



Clearly you do not have a clue. You have a retired armor officer and a former armor NCO who worked building M1s giving you information and somehow you are more knowledgeable for having misread something in a book. Ok. Where do you come by this disiformation that 80 M1s were knoked out in Iraq? Also something you seem to be clueless about is the fact that the Austrailian M1A1s were just rebuilt U.S. used tanks. Nothing added or taken away from the armor.
Merki4
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 03:08 AM UTC
I'm not an expert, but for sure M1 don't mount a simple laminate steel armor, and this is clear by the design of the turret, T72 family have a rounded design turret while M1 have a squared design, tipical of the Chobam armor panel, like Leopard 2 or the Chally 1 has.
For sure the Abrams armor is not at the state of the art, only the front of the tank received a DU armour package, while the flank and the first side skirt panels, I think, are still the first generation Chobam armour ('80s), in fact are not able to defeat the latest version of RPG warhead.
My two cents
Lucio
awarnke
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 06:32 AM UTC
"Clearly you do not have a clue. You have a retired armor officer and a former armor NCO who worked building M1s giving you information and somehow you are more knowledgeable for having misread something in a book. Ok. Where do you come by this disiformation that 80 M1s were knoked out in Iraq? Also something you seem to be clueless about is the fact that the Austrailian M1A1s were just rebuilt U.S. used tanks. Nothing added or taken away from the armor."

The information on the 80 destroyed M1s is from a US Army report and usatoday and the freelibarary.com. I seriously doubt that all of those souces would have some sort of a unified vendeta against a tank. As for the M1's armour my source is Jane's Combat Vehicle Recognition Guide, Fully-Updated Second Edition by Christopher Foss. It designates the M1's armour as Laminate/Steel to the Challenger I as Chobahm/Steel to the the K1 as Laminate. And for a correction, it lists the T-72's armour as composite/steel. So the M1 has no Chobahm armour.

As for the Australian M1s according to www.defence.gov.au,"We're not buying Depleted Uranium (DU) armour or munitions, we are buying an advanced composite armour which is comparable and in some areas better, than DU." looks like someone's information is off so I wouldn't suggest being accusitory.